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Author Topic:   The third rule of war
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 24 (216000)
06-10-2005 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
06-09-2005 8:56 AM


The third rule of war should be that we never forget the sacrifices made by our young men and women, and we always honor them.
How good has the administration been at that? Do we honor our fallen when the GOP gets their panties in a knot about Ted Koppel reading out their names in prime time?
Do we honor our brave men and women when veteran's benefits are cut and stop-loss orders turn volunteers into conscripts? Do we honor our brave men and women when those who come back to speak the truth to power about the situation in Iraq are punished and marginalized?
Does it honor our troops when they get half the armor they could have simply because a bureaucrat forgot to ask? Is the honor of our soldiers magnified when recruiters turn into roving press gangs?
Look, let's honor our troops. They do a job that most of us would not, and couldn't even if we tried. But let's not pretend that honoring our men and women on the field is only possible by honoring the pusillanimous coward that ordered them there, that craven slime that dishonors our armed services with almost every action he takes.
Has anybody else seen the Downing Street memo? My apologies to the Uk members, who have been seeing it for weeks. We're only just starting to hear about it over here. It makes it pretty clear that Bush lied to take us to war. It's grounds for impeachment as far as I can see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 06-09-2005 8:56 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Tal, posted 06-10-2005 11:04 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 24 (216013)
06-10-2005 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by EZscience
06-10-2005 7:04 PM


This is a point that I have been wondering about over the last few days. Does one honor and respect anyone who is willing to sacrifice there well-being and life for a cause that they believe in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by EZscience, posted 06-10-2005 7:04 PM EZscience has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 06-10-2005 10:42 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 24 by Silent H, posted 06-11-2005 4:10 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 18 of 24 (216027)
06-10-2005 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chiroptera
06-10-2005 8:06 PM


I see where you're going with this.
And yes, a person who dedicates and is willing to sacrifice their own lives to a principle larger than themselves - be it freedom, or democracy, or faith - deserves a certain level of respect.
But what they choose to do with that dedication and sacrifice has something to do with it, too. And while I don't think any of our soldiers are perfect, and many of them far from, I think there's a demonstratable difference between a plain ol' guy doing his best to protect people and an ideologue who has decided that no price in lives is too high if it's God's will.
But, I don't know. You ask a question that isn't easy to answer. Unless you answer with something stupid like "yes, unless they're an evil terrorist."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2005 8:06 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2005 10:50 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 24 (216029)
06-10-2005 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by crashfrog
06-10-2005 10:42 PM


There are different meanings to the word "love" -- the love for one's spouse is different from the love for one's best friend for instance. I think that there are different kinds or levels of "respect".
I do have a grudging respect for anyone who will sacrifice their life for a cause or belief or honor. But there is a different level of respect I feel depending on how they arrive and maintain their ideals -- is it through deep soul-searching? Or is it through a justified anger that spurs the individual on, or perhaps an unjustifed hatred? This does affect the level of respect that I feel.
Then there is the type of respect that I have for those whose ideals themselves are ideals that I can admire, even if I don't share them, and whose devotion to those ideals lead them behave nobly.
This may be something like what you are saying here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 06-10-2005 10:42 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 20 of 24 (216032)
06-10-2005 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
06-10-2005 7:34 PM


How good has the administration been at that?
Subject: Fw: What doesn't make the news
I thought this was worth passing along. I'm sick of all the negative stuff from both sides.
Attached is a picture of one of my best friends in the Army, Mike McNaughton. We were privates together in 1990-1994. He stepped on a landmine in Afghanistan Christmas 2002. President Bush came to visit the wounded in the hospital. He told Mike that when he could run a mile, that they would go on a run together.
True to his word, he called Mike every month or so to see how he was doing. Well, last week they went on the run, 1 mile with the president. Not something you'll see in the news, but seeing the president taking the time to say thank you to the wounded and to give hope to one of my best friends was one of the greatest/best things I have seen in my life.
It almost sounds like a corny email chain letter, but God bless him.
Love,
Justin
There are many stories like this well known to the troops. Most are not in the media, because this kind of story doesn't sell commercials.
This is my personal favorite, but The Commander in Chief stopping by Baghdad for Thanksgiving was really awesome too.
stop-loss orders turn volunteers into conscripts?
Stop loss possibilites are apart of the contract when you enlist.
oes it honor our troops when they get half the armor they could have simply because a bureaucrat forgot to ask?
I still don't know where this came from. You can't even get into Theater unless you have IBA (Interceptor Body Armor).
But let's not pretend that honoring our men and women on the field is only possible by honoring the pusillanimous coward that ordered them there, that craven slime that dishonors our armed services with almost every action he takes.
Most soldiers do not share your view of the Commander in Chief.

"A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future."
- General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 06-10-2005 7:34 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Entomologista, posted 06-10-2005 11:20 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 06-10-2005 11:26 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 23 by Silent H, posted 06-11-2005 3:55 AM Tal has not replied

  
Entomologista
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 24 (216038)
06-10-2005 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tal
06-10-2005 11:04 PM


If our president cares so much, why doesn't he make the ultimate sacrifice? Why doesn't he enlist his daughters?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Tal, posted 06-10-2005 11:04 PM Tal has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 24 (216039)
06-10-2005 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tal
06-10-2005 11:04 PM


Oh, so he jogs with every disabled veteran, then? No?
Exactly how many disabled vets does he have to jog with to make up for just the armor?
Seriously, he jogged with some dude. Clearly it was a publicity stunt because there was the White House photographer, taking snapshots. How does that honor our troops?
I'm glad that soldier is doing well, and had an experience he'll always remember, but what does that have to do with the subject?
Stop loss possibilites are apart of the contract when you enlist.
Uh-huh. Do you know what it's called when you can't quit a job when you want?
I still don't know where this came from.
It came from the news, dude.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.optruth.org/main.cfm?actionId=globalShowStaticContent&screenKey=pressReleases&htmlId=1529
quote:
In a stunning revelation today, a top executive with Armor Holdings, Inc., the sole provider of protective plating for the military's Humvees, admitted his company informed the Pentagon that it could increase production by as much as 22 percent, but has not received the go ahead from the Pentagon to do so.
Most soldiers do not share your view of the Commander in Chief.
Granted. What's the relevance of that, exactly?
Could you respond to my points, please? Any comment on the Marines kidnapping an 18-year-old to coerce him to serve? Do you think that honors our military?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Tal, posted 06-10-2005 11:04 PM Tal has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 23 of 24 (216078)
06-11-2005 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tal
06-10-2005 11:04 PM


There are many stories like this well known to the troops. Most are not in the media, because this kind of story doesn't sell commercials. This is my personal favorite, but The Commander in Chief stopping by Baghdad for Thanksgiving was really awesome too.
Are you telling me that your affections can be bought so easily? Can't you tell a photo op from a real and credible honoring of troops?
By the way, it does sell commercials for Bush, he uses them all the time.
Stop loss possibilites are apart of the contract when you enlist.
The question was not what was possible, it was what is HONORING the troops. Taking people that are serving well and then making them serve more against their will because it is likely they will not want to be there is not honoring them. Is it?
Being left dead in an unmarked ditch is a possibility when you enlist, would it then be honoring the troops if Bush saved money by having all our dead get dumped in a giant unmarked ditch?
Most soldiers do not share your view of the Commander in Chief.
I would not think of speaking for most soldiers. But in any case, assuming it is true, that is sort of sad yet understandable given their situation. Who would want to believe that they are being used as a tool? That's how most soldiers who have been used as tools, including Saddam's own forces early on in his career felt about their commanders.
That's not to mention criticisms of the Commander in Chief are generally forced to be kept to a minimum, right? That would not be good for morale and so get squashed.
Given that most of the world finds him inept, that counts a bit more than what the soldiers currently feel about him.
I never knew a sucker could also be a tool. Very enlightening.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Tal, posted 06-10-2005 11:04 PM Tal has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 24 of 24 (216082)
06-11-2005 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chiroptera
06-10-2005 8:06 PM


Does one honor and respect anyone who is willing to sacrifice there well-being and life for a cause that they believe in?
Yes in a way. Self-sacrifice of the kind you are discussing contains a measure of virtue no matter what the cause and so deserves respect for that virtue.
However, respect and honor does not mean justification or acceptance of their goals nor their actions. For example many famous generals honored and respected their enemies, almost to the point of reverence despite avidly pursuing and killing them on the battlefield.
Also, honoring the troops in general, should not be used by an individual soldier as a cloak for their own actions. Any individual soldier can generally get the benefit of teh doubt, but in reality may have been cowardly a mindless thug a hopeless brainwashed tool or a vicious sadist. They will have to make their case individually to those that come to know them.
In this way, one might find soldiers of the third reich who were deserving of the utmost honor and respect, and yet another soldier from the allied side at our most precious victory D-Day who was worth nothing but contempt.
While I have heard and seen some things that made me proud of troops in Iraq, I have heard and seen many cases of blatant and ugly ineptitude, ignorance, bigotry, and visciousness. That is not to mention the tales of units and soldiers who were just as much a militant fundamentalist as the terrrosists we are supposed to be fighting.
I think this war contains many soldiers on our own side who are not worthy of respect on an individual basis, not to mention the war itself condemned, though the troops in general should still be praised.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2005 8:06 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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