God's Prophecies: what is behind them?

The problem is summarized with the following question.
When God pronounces a prophecy, He:1) "Sees" the future, without compelling the happenings to fit the prophetic model (highlighting his foreseeing capability) or..2) He controls and guides all the happenings so they will fit the prophetic model (highlighting his almightiness capability).Which of these models do you seem to apply to the Bible's God?This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 05-25-2005 05:33 AM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Neither and both in part. God simply conveys through the prophet what He has already planned and therefore knows will come about in the future. He sees the future as clearly as the past and present. He doesn't have to make anything fit, compel anything whatever, He is merely telling us what He knows is going to happen, and that's because He both "knows the end from the beginning" and "purposes" to do it. This message has been edited by Faith, 05-25-2005 03:22 AM

It is actually neither of the two suggestions.'Prophecies' are man made and man-fullfilled.Prophecy is probably the least spectacular of the bible gimmicks because they are completely impossible to support.I can state quite confidently that there has not been a single 'prophecy' in the entire Bible that has been fulfilled.Look at a couple of 'prophecies' and you can see how inane the concept is, and how totally blown out of reality it is.First, look at the prophecy about a Davidic dynasty. There will always be a son of David on the throne of Israel. So, how is this a wonderful prophecy when we consider that anyone subsequent to David HAS to be a son of his or they wouldn't be considered for the throne! It is a self fulfilling prophecy. God says there's always going to be a son of David on the throne, thus, anyone who isn't descended form David isn't considered!Here's another one, a bit closer to the modern day world.How many Christians wet themselves when they see 'Israel back in the promised land'?Forget for a minute that they actually aren't, but they forget that it was humans who worked their asses off to force Palestinians out of 'Israel' to help this little 'prophecy' along.Christians were becoming bored with Jesus' time keeping and wanted to help the 'prophecy' along a little. It is nothing to do with God, prophecy is nothing other than self fulfilling.Brian.

You're off topic.

How so?

Asteragos is assuming that God originates what are properly (or improperly) called prophecies. It appears that his question is based upon this assumption.Am I right, Asteragos?If so, you are reframing the topic, Brian. Your assumption, makes for another rather interesting topic, but not directly addressing this one.This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 05-25-2005 05:32 AM

He asks, 'which of these models', and my reply was 'none of them'.My reply is easily within topic as it can be answred by saying that option two applies to my scenario.The pro crowd can argue that God has guided the participants. I can argue that it negates free will.If the originator wants to limit it to these two options, which are by no means the only tow possible solutions, then that's fine. But he should have stated that argument clearly.Brian.

quote:

---

The problem is summarized with the following question.
When God pronounces a prophecy, He:

---

The Hebrew God didn't pronounce prophecies, prophets did. In the OT a prophet was a spokesman for God. Moses was a prophet because he spoke for God and related God's will to the people. The people did not want God to speak to them directly. Therefore the primary job of the prophet was to relay God's instructions to the people and warn them of what will happen if they fail to follow God.

quote:

---

1) "Sees" the future, without compelling the happenings to fit the prophetic model (highlighting his foreseeing capability) or..

​

2) He controls and guides all the happenings so they will fit the prophetic model (highlighting his almightiness capability).

---

So neither of your models truly represents the Hebrew God's use of the prophets as I understand it in the OT.It was more along the lines of "If you don't follow my commands then I will..."

---

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Purpledawn--I think I understand you. Thus, any TRUE prophet never "vainly prophecied out of their own imagination, right? In other words, the definition of a prophet was as you say one who spoke on behalf of God,right?This verse had me puzzled for a minute:So then I looked up the word "enticed"... So if a prophet were to be enticed, they would be following their own vain imagination or interpretation.If the Lord has enticed the Prophet, is that similar to the Lord allowing Satan to devestate Job?Perhaps there is an issue of common sense and free will on the Prophets part. They would know if the internal unction to say something came from the Lord or not, right? So enticement is not temptation....now I'm really confused. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-26-2005 06:54 AMThis message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-26-2005 06:57 AM

So in #1, God knows whats gonna happen and through the Prophet lets everyone know that if they don't change their ways, life will be difficult.In #2, God actually makes life difficult after telling everyone that it will get that way.I would say that #1 sounds more logical. The people bring on the difficulty by refusing to listen to God. He does not need to make life difficult. Refusal to listen to Him is in and of itself causing bad stuff to happen.

quote:

---

Thus, any TRUE prophet never "vainly prophecied out of their own imagination, right? In other words, the definition of a prophet was as you say one who spoke on behalf of God,right?

---

That is the premise of OT prophecy as I understand it. God puts his words in the prophets mouth.

quote:

---

So if a prophet were to be enticed, they would be following their own vain imagination or interpretation.

---

The setup here for Ezekiel is in verse 7.The offender wants the best of both worlds (idols and YHWH). God promises to cut the person off from his people for worshipping idols. Any prophet who tries to consult God for an idolator will be suffer as well. Looks like the prophet needs to be careful who his customers are.If the prophet was baited, I don't know that he would be following his own vain imagination or interpretation. Since God was doing the baiting, he apparently gave the prophet something to say.I'll have to think on it a bit.

---

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Bible Prophecy could be expressed in terms of the following periods of time:~AGE OF PROMISE: God promised Abraham and his descendants the Promised Land. This is approximately the present land occupied by the nation of Israel, plus substantial surrounding territory. God chose Israel to play a special role in bringing his plan of salvation to the world. It is important to emphasize that much of Bible Prophecy revolves around Israel and of course Jesus Christ.~AGE OF LAW: This period started when God gave Moses the Law on Mount Sinai, and it ended with the crucifixion of Jesus. The Law was a detailed set of rules and regulations which the Israelites had to follow. The Law also included animal sacrifices to compensate, at least for the time being, for failure to live up to the Law. In giving the Law, God was continuing to reveal his plan of salvation for the human race.~AGE OF GRACE: This period started with the crucifixion of Jesus in 30 ad. It will essentially end at the Rapture of the Church. The death of Jesus on the cross replaced once and for all the animal sacrifices required under the Law. Under Grace we can now accept on faith God's forgiveness for our failures, provided by the ultimate sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross. Those who BELIEVE IN and DEPEND ON the sacrificial death of Jesus for their salvation are said to be under Grace.~TRIBULATION PERIOD: Prior to the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation Period a world leader will arise. Israel will continue to face crises of one form or another. At some point when the situation in Israel becomes serious enough, this world leader will make a 7-year protective treaty with Israel. The making of this covenant is the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation Period. Just after the midpoint of the 7-year Tribulation Period, the Rapture of the Church is expected.Near the end of the Tribulation Period, the ANTICHRIST will gather the armies of the world together to destroy Israel. However these armies will be destroyed by Jesus and his heavenly armies, who will appear from heaven at that time. This is known as the Battle of Armageddon. At this time the ANTICHRIST and the FALSE PROPHET are cast alive into the Lake of Fire. Also at this time Satan is chained and confined in the Bottomless Pit for 1000 years, and so there will be no demonic activity on earth during most of the 1000-year Millennial Age which follows.~1000-YEAR MILLENNIAL AGE: At the very end of the Tribulation Period Jesus does the following: a) sets up his Kingdom on earth and b) conducts the Judgment of the Nations. The righteous will continue on earth into the 1000-year Millennial Age which follows immediately. At the very end of the 1000-year Millennial Age the wicked dead are raised, judged and then cast into the Lake of Fire, and Satan is then cast into the Lake of Fire.~ETERNITY: This starts immediately after the 1000-year Millennial Age. John, writer of Revelation, saw a new Heaven and a new earth. All reality will be re-made. New Jerusalem, the Holy City, desends to earth. New Jerusalem has an area of 140,625 square miles, or 90 million acres. There will be no death, no pain.Revelation 21:5- He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~So the type and purpose of prophecy depends partly on which age we are talking about. For instance, in the Age of Promise, the prophecies could be thought of as type 2) He controls and guides all the happenings so they will fit His promises.When it comes to the tribulation period and the actions of the antichrist, ect they would seem to be type 1) "Sees" the future, without compelling the happenings to fit the prophetic model.Its important to note that not all Bible scholars agree on how future prophecy will be fulfilled.Fulfilled prophecy is one of the most powerful proofs that the Bible truly is the Word of God. There were over 300 Old Testament prophecies about The Messiah that were fulfilled by the life of Jesus Christ. This is part of the purpose of prophecy - to show us The Messiah, so that we can believe in Him.This message has been edited by Limbo, 05-26-2005 04:31 PMThis message has been edited by AdminJar, 05-26-2005 06:07 PM

It sounds like you're attributing much of Revelations to future times when many Christians see Revelations as long, long in the past and refering to political commentary related to Rome?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I thought about this one a bit as well. In James, it is said that God never tempts anyone.I am thinking that what this basically means, then, is that God allows the Prophet to feel the urge to speak, yet never actually gives the command to do so.Kinda like gossip is with many of us. We know that we know something that others do not know, yet it is not a necessary piece of information and the urge to retell it is because of our egos and our fleshly nature vs any altruistic motive.