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Author Topic:   Exodus Part One: Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 108 (210806)
05-24-2005 7:55 AM


I had been thinking about a new Exodus topic and, I had said elsewhere, I would have preferred to have a discussion that focussed on one area of the debate at a time before moving on to the next area, but I have reconsidered and decided that I would have an individual thread about a few different aspects of the Exodus event. I think having a few subtopics in the one thread would be too difficult to keep focussed.
I don’t think it would be possible to cover every single aspect of the subject, but I think that there are a few aspects that really need to be supported if we are to take the exodus seriously as an historical event.
The first area that I would like to discuss is a pretty obvious one. If the Exodus narratives in the Hebrew Bible are true, then there would have to have been a time when the Israelites were actually in Egypt.
I would like to make what may look like a fairly bold statement to open this thread and that is:
There is no direct evidence whatsoever for Hebrews/Israelites living in Egypt at the time the Bible claims the Israelites were in bondage there. (This is true whether we take the 15th or 13th century dates)
Remember that the Bible suggests that there was about 2-3 million in the group that left Egypt, and Modern scholars cautiously estimate a population (of Egypt)of between four and five million in the ancient period. The point is that the Israelites would have constituted an extraordinarily high percentage of the population of Egypt. (Nahum Sarna, 1986 Exploring Exodus: the heritage of biblical Israel, New York, Schocken Books.)
So, Exodus supporters, can you prove me wrong and provide any direct evidence of Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt?
I would imagine that such a high percentage of the population would have left some direct evidence. If not, then how do we proceed?
Brian

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by CK, posted 05-24-2005 8:26 AM Brian has replied
 Message 52 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-25-2005 9:00 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 87 by John Williams, posted 08-04-2005 10:36 PM Brian has replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 108 (210810)
05-24-2005 8:11 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 3 of 108 (210812)
05-24-2005 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
05-24-2005 7:55 AM


Surely the first stage is to have some broad agreement about the numbers of hebrews and the percentage that they made up of the total population?
Brian claims a number of @ 2-3 million - is this an acceptable number to all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 05-24-2005 7:55 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Brian, posted 05-24-2005 8:39 AM CK has not replied
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 4 of 108 (210814)
05-24-2005 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by CK
05-24-2005 8:26 AM


Exodus 12:37
The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children.
The number involved is based soley on the Bible, and we don't want to go reinterpreting the text do we?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 05-24-2005 8:54 AM Brian has replied
 Message 10 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 5:36 PM Brian has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 108 (210817)
05-24-2005 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Brian
05-24-2005 8:39 AM


Re: Exodus 12:37
How certain is the translation ? As I understand it the word translated as "thousands" could mean "family" or refer to some other grouping (i.e. the occupants of a tent).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Brian, posted 05-24-2005 8:39 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Brian, posted 05-24-2005 9:20 AM PaulK has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 6 of 108 (210822)
05-24-2005 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
05-24-2005 8:54 AM


Re: Exodus 12:37
There is the possibility of several different translations. Flinders Petrie was one of the first to suggest that the word for 'thousand' (eleph) can be translated as family. George Mendenhall suggested something similar in the 1950's claiming that tribal stats supported his hypothesis that the figures were family units plus total number of people. Hence the tribe of Asher whose figures are given in Numbers 1:41 as 41,500, should be read as 41 families with a total number for the tribe of 500 people. The hypothesis has some real problems attached to it, especially when you consider the Levites whose number is given in Numbers 3:39 as 22,000, or 22 families with no people in them.
Numbers 1:45-46 also gives a slightly different number to Exodus 12:37, it says
45 All the Israelites twenty years old or more who were able to serve in Israel's army were counted according to their families. 46 The total number was 603,550.
Personally, I wouldn't take the number of Israelites as being 2-3 million, but this figure is the generally accepted amount in the literature.
To propose that 70 people became 2-3 million in 430 years is in itself an absurd suggestion, and utterly impossible for the time and place we are talking about. But, IMO, all attempts to rationalise this number by decreasing it have all failed. I did try to arrive at a smaller population myself about a year ago, but all suggestions have huge problems. Although, I will admit that the 2-3 million is the most difficult to support.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 05-24-2005 8:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 05-24-2005 1:02 PM Brian has replied
 Message 11 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 5:41 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 16 by Nighttrain, posted 05-24-2005 6:36 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 05-25-2005 4:23 AM Brian has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 108 (210863)
05-24-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Brian
05-24-2005 9:20 AM


Re: Exodus 12:37
Well to give the opposition a fair chance, if we assume a more reasonable number what sort of evidence might we reasonably hope to find ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Brian, posted 05-24-2005 9:20 AM Brian has replied

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Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 108 (210890)
05-24-2005 2:52 PM


I just wanted to bring this page to your attention, in case you all hadn't seen it.
IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt
quote:
A look at all the archaeological evidence shows that the best fit of the data is to identify the Exodus with the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt around 1570-50 BC The most important discovery is the Merneptah stele that mentions Israel which forced the revision of a number of liberal theories. Before the discovery of this stele scholars placed the date of the exodus and entry into Canaan much later. They were now forced to admit that Israel was already in Canaan at the time of Merneptah. This puts a terminus ante quem date of 1210 BC for the exodus.

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 9 of 108 (210940)
05-24-2005 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by CK
05-24-2005 8:26 AM


Brian claims a number of @ 2-3 million - is this an acceptable number to all?
I agree.
RM

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 Message 3 by CK, posted 05-24-2005 8:26 AM CK has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 10 of 108 (210943)
05-24-2005 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Brian
05-24-2005 8:39 AM


Re: Exodus 12:37
The number involved is based soley on the Bible, and we don't want to go reinterpreting the text do we?
The number involved is based solely on the evidence.
Funny how you are against reinterpretation here but your tune changes when 1Kings 6:1 is the issue ?
RM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Brian, posted 05-24-2005 8:39 AM Brian has replied

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 11 of 108 (210944)
05-24-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Brian
05-24-2005 9:20 AM


Re: Exodus 12:37
To propose that 70 people became 2-3 million in 430 years is in itself an absurd suggestion, and utterly impossible for the time and place we are talking about.
Unsupported assertion contrary to the evidence.
If this is an indication as to how this topic will proceed then it will be a long frustrating one.
RM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Brian, posted 05-24-2005 9:20 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 05-24-2005 5:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 108 (210946)
05-24-2005 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Cold Foreign Object
05-24-2005 5:41 PM


Re: Exodus 12:37
Unsupported assertion contrary to the evidence.
What evidence Ray?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 5:41 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 13 of 108 (210952)
05-24-2005 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
05-24-2005 5:44 PM


Re: Exodus 12:37
What evidence Ray?
Exodus 12:37
RM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 05-24-2005 5:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 19 by jar, posted 05-24-2005 6:59 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 14 of 108 (210953)
05-24-2005 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object
05-24-2005 6:05 PM


Re: Exodus 12:37
Let's be clear about this - you feel that 70 people became 4 million in the space of @ 400 years?
Is that basically your position or have I got an element of it wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 6:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 6:36 PM CK has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 15 of 108 (210957)
05-24-2005 6:32 PM


Velikovsky, Ages in Chaos, pages 164, 165 [1952]:
"Cut into the outside of the southern wall at the Karnak Temple is a hieroglyphic name which reads "Sosenk", and this king of the Libyan Dynasty inscribed the names of cities subject to him.
"The relief has 155 names of cities"
[Jirku, Die agyptischen Listen, Klio Beihefte, XXXVIII (1937)] "Only 17 can be located with certainty, and 2 more with probability. 14 of these belong to Israel; they are mostly unimportant towns while the remaining 5 in Judah are, with one exception, obscure villages" [Breasted, Records, Vol.IV, Sec.711.]"
Ray Martinez: Here we have inscriptions testifying to non-existent cities and locales.
Maybe more have been identified today.
But the point is, are the cities myths because they have not been identified ?
Is the alleged lack of archaeological remains of Hebrews in Egypt make the book of Exodus a myth ?
I believe I have made my point for now.
Ray Martinez

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by PaulK, posted 05-24-2005 6:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
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