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Author | Topic: A personal question | |||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: We would also have to consider it "unnatural", from a Biological viewpoint, to refrain from creating children as soon as we reach sexual maturity, which would be around 12 for girls and a few years older for boys.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Ah, but you are forgetting that Bonobos and human females have sex even when they are not "in heat", or fertile, which means that there is another reason for intercourse. That other reason is to strengthen social bonds.
quote: So why do human females crave sex at times when they aren't fertile, and why do human males find females interesting at times when the females aren't fertile?
quote: No, it certainly IS part of the naturalistic worldview. There are lots of mammals which display homosexual behavior. Cows mount each other when they are in heat. Cats and dogs will mount the same sex counterpart to display dominance. Bottlenose dolphins will form same-sex pairs and engage in sex. It is still around because it doesn't hurt anyone, and it actually helps with social bonding.
quote: But what harm does homosexuality cause to herterosexual people, Gene? How can you possibly equate the act of murder with two people who happen to be of the same gender loving each other? That is completely irrational. Why do you list only things like "genetically-predisposed to murder or to be violent" in the same sentence as homosexuality? I am not saying that "a genetic predisposition = morally OK." I am saying that the LDS statement is utterly wrong in it's strong implication that gay people aren't that way by nature. If you want to think that being gay is immoral, then fine, but it is not rational in the least to say that it isn't natural, as there is a lot o' homosexual behavior in nature. You have got to ignore a lot of evidence to say that it isn't natural. As a consequence, you are then left with the dilemma; God made everything, so if God made gay people that way, why are we supposed to condemn homosexuality?
quote: And vice-versa. That's because there are very few people who are "totally" gay or "totally" hetero. Most people are somewhere in the middle of the bell curve, and since there is strong social pressure for most to be hetero, that is the way they live.
quote: If your reason for thinking so is because it says so in the Bible, then you are being selective. It's also considered an abomination to wear mixed fiber clothing and for crippled people to go to church.
[QUOTE][B]Certain behaviors, when not checked, are very bad for such associations. Homosexuality is not one of those behaviors.[/QUOTE] quote: I suspected as much. I am around lots of openly-gay people, as my town is one of the few which allows same-gender partners to adopt children. I have many gay co-workers and friends.
quote: God doesn't want people to be in loving, comitted relationships? Didn't God make them the way they are?
quote: So? Sex for humans isn't only about reproduction, otherwise we wouldn't have the ability to respond sexually when we aren't fertile. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-21-2002] [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-21-2002]
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Come on, Gene. Social bonding and cooperation is considered to be one of the most important reasons humans ever became as successful as they did. The reason bonds form in war is not because of the shooting, but because of the coming together against a common foe. It's funny you should mention war, though, because I think it was the ancient greeks who's soldiers used to have gay lovers because they believed that the loyalty and devotion would be greater, thus would protect each other more fiercely. It is clear that you have decided ahead of time that your church's teaching is correct and nothing will ever make you think otherwise. It is a lot like talking to a very intellectually-nimble brick wall. BTW, can I assume that you concede that the LDS statement on homosexuality doesn't actually say that gay people are "naturally-gay"? Also, I am sorry that you equate criticism of LDS church policies with belittling them. Quite the contrary; if they weren't so influential I woulnd't bother.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Was thinking about this and realized I have a point to make about it...
quote: I would agree with you that this is an immoral act because an innocent (the spouse being cheated on) is being deceived and betrayed, and therefore injured. This is not what I was talking about when I asked you if you held love as a value. I do not think that love is an excuse for hurting and betraying others, which is how you have portrayed it in your example above. I am talking about two unattached people falling in love and wanting to make a life together, and those two people happen to be of the same gender. I have yet to hear a satisfactory justification for an anti-gay stance by any Christian group. ------------------"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow- minded." -Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Agreed.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Since being a Muslim 99% is based upon the surrounding environment and not dependent upon genetical structures, one should ask himself if it really is moral. Morality has NOTHING to do with if something is natural or not. Morality is made up by humans and always has been.
quote: Um, first of all, the idea that a child with two parents of the same gender will be confused about who are boys and who are girls is not established at all, nor will they necesarily be gay. Most gay children come from traditional hetero families, don't they, so this doesn't fit. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Second of all, what do gender roles and sexual preference have to do with each other?
quote: Yet another comparison of homosexuality with the crime of theft. How and why people equate them, I don't understand.
quote: Not sure what you mean here...
quote: LOL! Never said we should want to be Bonobos. They ARE our closest relatives and are very much like us, socially, physically, and genetically, so therefore they are useful subjects of study for comparison.
quote: Saying that "children aren't made that way" is a very bold statement considering that very little formal research on the genetic basis of homosexuality has been done. Tell me, what research are you relying on when you make this statement? "Right from wrong" is a human construct and is defined differently all around the world.
quote: We still eat raw meat. Carpaccio? Sushi?
quote: ...or homosexuality unnatural. You still haven't given any reason at all why homosexuality is either harmful or unnatural.
[/QUOTE]
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: After reading this again, I realized that this is very interesting. Gene, what is the difference between a genetic "abberation" and a genetic "variation"? In what instances (other than homosexuality) would you consider relatively rare variations in a population to be unnatural?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, I suppose I want to hear your definition of "intelligent", but in lieu of that, there are examples of homosexual behavior in non-primate animals such as dogs, cats, cows, and dolphins. I would say that the animals that display homosexual behavior are often have very complex social structures in which social bonds and cooperation are important for survival.
quote: In that case, does one also choose to be heterosexual? Please define "natural".
quote: Define "normal". So, now you are condemning all "non-traditional" families. What about children raised by single parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles, etc? Again, what evidence do you have that being raised in a non-traditional family has any negative affect upon children at all?
quote: Look, the children of marriages of mixed faith, mixed ethnicity, mixed social class, mixed regionality, mixed country of origin, etc., all have had to deal with greater or lesser problems from bigots and hate-mongers and ignorant people all along. I expect there will be stupid people who will give a kid a hard time because they are prejudiced against their parents, but any child born out of love and raised in a loving home will be able to handle it. And time has, and will, integrate these people until it is simply not a big deal. We see this today.
quote: Many lesbians produce their own children, actually.
quote: That's exactly the point. They shouldn't have to hide. THEY are not hurting anyone. It is the culture which is hurting THEM.
quote: You are assuming that a boundry was ever needed or appropriate in the first place. You still have not explained how homosexuality is harmful to anyone. Thankfully, most places in the US no longer have laws which govern what consenting adults do in the privacy in their own home.
quote: Why is love between two people immoral just because they are of the same gender? Who does it hurt? {Unbolded non-quote text - Adminnemooseus} [This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 10-23-2002]
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[B][QUOTE][B]In that case, does one also choose to be heterosexual?[/QUOTE] [/B] Good point! Yes. As long as there is the possibility of being homosexual, one *must* choose, at some level, to be heterosexual. BTW, you opened the door for this when you insisted that people aren't 100% heterosexual.[/QUOTE] The point remains that since most people "sit the fence", more or less, and we happen to live in a culture (US) that generally hates and fears homosexuality, or at the least most people are uncomfortable with it, the social pressure to live a hetero lifestyle is quite strong. In other parts of the world it isn't like that.
[QUOTE][B]You still have not explained how homosexuality is harmful to anyone.[/QUOTE] [/B] Homosexuality, as far as I can tell, is not harmful. But that does not make it moral. I think it should be allowed to be practiced in the open. I think homosexual partners should have the same legal rights as nonmarried heterosexual partners. I'm not sure about my opinion on homosexual marriages, I feel like I could argue that either way. My problem with your reasoning is that you think that moral values are based entirely on what is and is not harmful to others. You don't recognize the possibility, that with some kind of ID and a sense of "purpose" for gender differences, it becomes more complicated than that. [/B][/QUOTE] Sure, it's possible, but it certainly isn't probable, and I see no evidence for ID, and I see no reason to condemn love between two people for no good reason. You do realize, of course, that you have not given any reason for why homosexuality isn't moral, other than "the Bible says so". The Bible also says that slavery is OK and that it is an abomination for crippled people to approach the alter in temple.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I don't think it matters if it is a choice or not. People aught to be able to love whomever the hell they want. Having said that, I don't think that many gay people are happy pretending to be hetero. Our culture hates and fears them. This is why the suicide rate among gay teenagers is very high.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: One of the reasons certain traits are still around is because they are neutral in effect. The reason cannibalism is still around, I imagine, is because they occur in species which reproduce copious numbers of offspring (mice) or in species where there is a lot of competition for females, rangeland, and pack leadership (lions).
quote: I already addressed your war analogy. I said that the bonds of war happen because people are coming together to fight a common foe, not simply because shooting occurs.
quote: quote: So, are you saying that your morals are relatively arbitrary, and even though you think that homosexuality doesn't harm anyone, it is still immoral, because the Bible says so? Then I would say that your position lacks reason.
quote: quote: So, is your standard of morality begin and end at the bible, no matter how illogical and unreasonable it is?
[QUOTE][B]I am not saying that "a genetic predisposition = morally OK."[/QUOTE] [/B] quote: [QUOTE][B]I am saying that the LDS statement is utterly wrong in it's strong implication that gay people aren't that way by nature.[/QUOTE] [/B] quote: I certainly did.
[QUOTE][B]I have many gay co-workers and friends.[/QUOTE] [/B] quote: Homophobia generally is based upon a lack of ecpreience with openly gay people, yes. (Homophobia might be too strong a word for your views, I'm not sure.)
quote: Gee, let's see...who is more likely to have a realistic view of what openly gay people are like inside a community; someone who interacts with gay people and someone who has never met an openly gay person?
quote: LOL! My environment is hardly the Village or the Bay area, Gene! Since the vast majority of Michigan is, shall we say, extremely conservative and the north branch of the Bible Belt, Ann Arbor has become a Mecca for all those Michigan people who are "different"; artists, musicians, free-thinkers, atheists, gay folks, hippies, liberal political actiivists, etc. It's where all the wierdos who were run out of town for being different come.
[QUOTE][B]If you want to think that being gay is immoral, then fine, but it is not rational in the least to say that it isn't natural, as there is a lot o' homosexual behavior in nature.[/QUOTE] [/B] quote: See, this I have no problem with, because you have decided that you are believing something because you believe God wants you to think a certain way. I certainly think you are wrong, and I don't think you can justify your belief in any other way other than it being from the Bible/your religion, so I will object on those grounds. I will also object on philosophical and ethical grounds, but not on religious grounds.
[QUOTE][B]Didn't God make them the way they are?[/QUOTE] [/B] quote: See, I think it is unreasonable to expect every human on the planet to be/act 100% heterosexual.
quote: LOL!
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It goes back to the bell curve I was talking about. (Bear in mind that this bell curve is probably skewed in favor of more hetero and fewer homo, but it is a curve, nonetheless.) The small number of people at the ends of the bell curve are "very" straight or "very" homosexual. Everyone else in the middle could probably respond either way, to a greater or lesser extent, depending upon circumstance and cultural influences. IOW, I never said that people didn't choose to be gay, but that fewer people choose it now because the social pressure to not be gay is so strong. I think that most of the people who come out these days are probably quite far to the end of the "gay" side of the bell curve because there is risk to one's personal safety in a lot of the world, let alone teasing and harrasment.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: What makes homosexuality immoral?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I dunno, Gene. Lots of Christianity-based sodomy laws out there which technically affect married couples as well as gay men.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Homosexuality is about much more than sex, Gene. It is no more or less about sex than heterosexuality. (Wait a minute...I'm talking to a young man in his early twenties, and I am telling him that there is more to life than hormones...what am I thinking?)
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