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Author Topic:   Challenge to Wordswordman
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 33 (19922)
10-15-2002 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
10-15-2002 5:47 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Wordswordman, if you really believe what you believe and you want to proselytize your beliefs to this board, then I challenge you. The first of Darwin's five theories (sensu Mayr) is that evolution (change) happens. 'Show us your proof, if you are right.' (Q 2:111). Show us that the first Darwin theory is false. Can you?
Mayr's first module:
quote:
1. Evolution as such. This is the theory that the world is not constant or recently created nor perpetually cycling, but rather is steadily changing, and that organisms are transformed in time.
[b]That is a statement of TofE that Arkansas students are required to learn. They are not required to believe it. An interpretation that I consider valid would be generally summarized that entire species, families, and probably genus groups have been steadily rendered extinct. That is an acceptable, proven change over time. That organisims are transformed over time is not a proven fact, but remains only an explanation for varieties of species. Varieties within species are acceptable forms of diversity, explained in simple genetic terms. The latest modern definitions of species had to be made comformable to TofE requirements concerning reproduction elements of so-called speciation, rather than frame honest morphological considerations, creating problems for systematists that shouldn't be tolerated.
Answer this fellow:
"In 1971, Gavin de Beer wrote: What mechanism can it be that results in the production of homologous organs, the same ‘patterns’, in spite of their not being controlled by the same genes? I asked this question in 1938, and it has not been answered."
[b]It still hasn't been answered, whether that is an actual original question from de Beer or not. I adopt that question for myself, demanding an answer to it before spending valuable time debating evolution. Evolution theory hangs on a scientific explanation of that problem and others like it. Will you be the history maker?
For more background before attempting the task of answering, consider this article: "Homology in Biology
A Problem for Naturalistic Science
Jonathan Wells, Ph.D.
Department of Molecular & Cell Biology
University of California, Berkeley, California, USA
http://www.trueorigin.org/homology.asp
Upon satisfactory answer backed by scientific evidence and a
valid demonstration the process is natural, I would consider
further discussion on evolution theory v. creation theory. It isn't acceptable to me that you might attempt to dodge the issue presented here, jumping over to something else. This is my counter challenge in answer to yours. This is a definitive line in the sand that to me supports the validity of including intelligent design in education curriculum. A "We don't know." answer will serve as an acceptable admission there are no valid evidences there are natural processes, or ever where, necessary to drive evolution, ending any reason to continue a discussion.
Are you one who would find a Seiko watch on the beach and conclude it is a natural phenomenon, something occurring by chance combination of metals and plastic? For the record, I would initially suspect it was something designed all in one relatively small slice of time due to the complexity, equal condition of wear and deterioration of its parts, and certainly the fact those objects are not commonly unearthed by paleontologists in any stage of existence. To my knowledge, not even one lone wheel necessary to form such an object has been located in the fossil record. Besides, had it been a natural phenomena, what mechanism wound it up or changed the battery? Left alone, they all "die", failing to reproduce.
I consider the darwinian purpose toward natural phenomena to be as rediculous as the above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-15-2002 5:47 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Mister Pamboli, posted 10-15-2002 11:48 AM Wordswordsman has replied
 Message 5 by Mammuthus, posted 10-15-2002 12:19 PM Wordswordsman has not replied
 Message 15 by Quetzal, posted 10-16-2002 3:27 AM Wordswordsman has not replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 33 (19928)
10-15-2002 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Mister Pamboli
10-15-2002 11:48 AM


Originally posted by Mister Pamboli:
quote:
WS:That is an acceptable, proven change over time. That organisims are transformed over time is not a proven fact, but remains only an explanation for varieties of species.
quote:
So here is the genesis of your problem - what is "acceptable" to you, and what constitutes "proven."
Babble. Dodging the issue. Just get to the answer. I have offered an argument that answers the challenge of this thread.
quote:
WS: Varieties within species are acceptable forms of diversity, explained in simple genetic terms. The latest modern definitions of species had to be made comformable to TofE requirements concerning reproduction elements of so-called speciation, rather than frame honest morphological considerations, creating problems for systematists that shouldn't be tolerated.
quote:
Why should a species be defined by morphology? WHat is "honest" about morphological considerations? Do you consider Corallus Caninus and Morelia Viridis to be the same species? Would it be honest to so describe them? kingsnake.com - reptile and amphibian classifieds, breeders, forums, photos, videos and more
Trying to stall this? I won't fall for a re-direction. Answer the question.
quote:
WS: Upon satisfactory answer
quote:
Can you define what would constitute "satisfactory"?
backed by scientific evidence
Pitiful excuses for the obvious inability to answer the question.
quote:
Perhaps you should first show that you are able and prepared to clearly define these terms and to establish objective criteria. FOr example, you could perhaps describe some scientific theories in which you do believe and explain how they are "satisfactory", "scientific", backed by "evidence" and capable of "valid demonstration."
That has nothing to do with this thread. I have been challenged, not to support any of my beliefs, but to deal with the first Darwin theory. My answer is to obtain the explanation of a key problem with that theory. Lack of explanation serves to demonstrate the theory is severely flawed, lacking a mechanical process necessary to evidence the theory.
quote:
This would give us an idea of the standard of proof which evolutionary theory has to meet. I would have thought it was quite a simple exercise for you, as I presume you have given this much thought. Then, of course, we will present the evidence that meets those objective standards.
Pick any standard of proof. I won't limit you. I'll refer you to the opening post, though, as the only challenge here. If you can't answer my answer, then the first Darwin theory is false until proven otherwise. Debate over.
quote:
So go ahead and draw your line in the sand - just draw it clearly and demonstrate that you draw it equally for all scientific processes, theories and inferences concerning the natural world.
[b]The line was drawn in my post. You somehow missed that. Yep, there it is, still there. Just answer the question:
[b][i]What mechanism can it be that results in the production of homologous organs, the same ‘patterns’, in spite of their not being controlled by the same genes?[/b][/i]
quote:
You see, it appears to me that the issue you raise is not "is there an answer to the question?" but "is there a satisfactory answer to the question?" You just have to be clear about what that entails.
[b]What I see about that is that you have NO answer, regardless the standard applied. A satisfactory answer is already defined in that same post:
Upon satisfactory answer backed by scientific evidence and a
valid demonstration the process is natural
quote:
A ludicrous example and one which reveals the pretentiousness of your supposedly objective stance. Were you to find a watch on the beach, its complexity, wear and occurence in the archaeological record would have nothing whatsoever to do with your inference that it was designed. You would draw the correct conclusion from the simple prior knowledge that these objects are designed, that you can walk into a shop and buy one, and that with a little effort you could design one yourself, or find one who could. We have no such knowledge of a designer of organisms. Further, we observe them being composed from the environment every day without any apparent intervention.
de Beer himself used that analogy. He's a lot smarter than you. I think he understood its application, and I understand it, but you don't. What you don't understand you call "ludicrous".
THAT is ludicrous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Mister Pamboli, posted 10-15-2002 11:48 AM Mister Pamboli has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Mammuthus, posted 10-15-2002 12:56 PM Wordswordsman has not replied
 Message 11 by Mister Pamboli, posted 10-15-2002 2:03 PM Wordswordsman has not replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 33 (20010)
10-16-2002 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
10-15-2002 5:47 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Wordswordman, if you really believe what you believe and you want to proselytize your beliefs to this board, then I challenge you. The first of Darwin's five theories (sensu Mayr) is that evolution (change) happens. 'Show us your proof, if you are right.' (Q 2:111). Show us that the first Darwin theory is false. Can you?
It appears necessary to repost post #1 above for the benefit of a few who fail to scroll up and change pages. Let me point out that the challenge is NOT for evolutionists to support the first Darwin theory, but for me to SHOW it is false. I chose my initial shot across the bow, the problem with homologous genes as related to production of homologous organs bearing the same ‘patterns’, in spite of their not being controlled by the same genes. Wells wrote "Diverse organisms possess homologous features. Homology may or may not be due to inheritance from a common ancestor, but it is definitely not due to similarity of genes or similarity of developmental pathways."
Nobody has attempted an answer to that here or anywhere else. I doubt there is even a good guess in the making. I highly doubt there will ever be an answer that fits the scientific method evolutionists are so jealous over. I asked for data, scientific data, supporting an answer to the above problem, also in all fairness asking for a demonstration, an actual observation in nature, of a mechanism that shows the scientific answer to be accurate, quite natural.
I've posted this same question on evolution boards before for years. It is never answered except with wild guesses, without a shred of evidence. Until then I consider biological evolution a pointless debate issue. The "heart" of evolution is violated. If you can't explain this homology/same gene problem, just admit it is a major objection to biological evolution. If so, it remains in the background, making further discussion of little value except to rehearse biology over and over.
From Page not found – Creation In The Crossfire
concerning a problem admitted by an EVOLUTIONIST:
"At level two de Beer studied homologous relations by inducing embryonic tissues to differentiate by diffusing substances from a master structure called an organizer. One study showed that the dorsal lip of a newt embryo can be grafted anywhere into the body of another embryo and will induce the surrounding tissues to differentiate into all the structures characteristic of a vertebrate embryo. If these tissues had been left undisturbed, they would have differentiated into entirely different structures (notochord, segmental muscle plates, kidney tubules spinal cord, brain with eyes, etc.), proving that the nature of a structure does not depend on the place of origin. This should be very disturbing to those who wish to apply homology to the battery of evidences for evolution. Homologous structures should originate at the same places in all descendants of a common ancestor, otherwise the homology has nothing to do with descent.
In another example, de Beer says that if the optic cup is removed in one species of frog the eye lens will not develop, while in another closely related species the lens does develop. He says it cannot be doubted that the lenses of these two species are homologous, yet they differ completely in their mechanism of determination and differentiation. The genes involved are not homologous.
In summary, he says:
"It is now clear that the pride with which it was assumed that the inheritance of homologous structures from a common ancestor explained homology was misplaced; for such inheritance cannot be ascribed to identity of genes. The attempt to find 'homologous' genes, except in closely related species, has been given up as hopeless."
He understands the logical absurdities, quoting S.C. Harland who said that the genes coding for the homologous structures must have become wholly altered during the evolutionary process! This should alarm geneticists, computer scientists, and linguists. It simply doesn't make sense, and de Beer says so:
"But if it is true that through the genetic code, genes code for enzymes that synthesize proteins which are responsible (in a manner still unknown in embryology) for the differentiation of the various parts of their normal manner, what mechanism can it be that results in the production of homologous organs, the same 'patterns' in spite of their not being controlled by the same genes? I asked this question in 1938, and it has not been answered.""
BTW, Well's article has NOT been refuted. Only contrary opinions are offered in various places by evolutionists insisting their interpretation is the right one. Nobody has PROVEN Wells wrong. His critique stands.
I ask once more before ignoring this thread, what mechanism? I attempt to show the first theory is false because the mechanism of development of homologous organs apart from homologous genes isn't known. The first theory is but a guess around an unknown mechanism that must not exist.
You asked for me to show falsehood, and I think I have. I think this is akin to the debunked evolution theory of recapitulation ("ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny"- still found in modern school textbooks).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-15-2002 5:47 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Mammuthus, posted 10-16-2002 8:36 AM Wordswordsman has replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 33 (20022)
10-16-2002 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Mammuthus
10-16-2002 8:36 AM


There is always greener grass over a fence somewhere. My comments are in 'bold'.
Hox (homeobox) GenesEvolution’s Saviour?
Don Batten
Some evolutionists hailed homeobox or hox genes as the saviour of evolution soon after they were discovered. They seemed to fit into the Gouldian mode of evolution (punctuated equilibrium) because a small mutation in a hox gene could have profound effects on an organism.
WS: How long did that one (PE) last? Most actual mutations have detrimental effects. Once again evolution hangs on mutations rather than natural processes designed into genes. By far the greatest effect of genetics is to continue a species with slight NECESSARY environmental adaptation through normal, natural genetic recombinations without adding genetic information. None of that is necessarily a permanent, irreversible change, given long term gradual changes in environment. Quick changes don't allow the supposed evolution processes to have beneficial effect, resulting in extinction, not improvement. Keep in mind the first priinciple of the first Darwin law which a priori excludes intelligent design/creation. It is not evidenced to be inapplicable.
However, further research has not born out the evolutionists’ hopes. Dr Christian Schwabe, the non-creationist sceptic of Darwinian evolution from the Medical University of South Carolina (Dept. of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology), wrote:
‘Control genes like homeotic genes may be the target of mutations that would conceivably change phenotypes, but one must remember that, the more central one makes changes in a complex system, the more severe the peripheral consequences become. Homeotic changes induced in Drosophila genes have led only to monstrosities, and most experimenters do not expect to see a bee arise from their Drosophila constructs.’ (Mini Review: Schwabe, C., 1994. Theoretical limitations of molecular phylogenetics and the evolution of relaxins. Comp. Biochem. Physiol.107B:167—177).
WS: On a side note the presence of EXCESS retinoic acid causes deformation of hox genes in humans, not benefits. Birth defects are not enhancements to the population. There is no evidence mutations of hox genes meets the question posed by de Beer.
Research in the six years since Schwabe wrote this has only born out his statement. Changes to homeotic genes cause monstrosities (two heads, a leg where an eye should be, etc.); they do not change an amphibian into a reptile, for example. And the mutations do not add any information, they just cause existing information to be mis-directed to produce a fruit-fly leg on the fruit-fly head instead of on the correct body segment, for example.
WS: So where is the evidence of ADDED information?
Evolutionists, of course, use the ubiquity of hox genes in their argument for common ancestry (‘Look, all these creatures share these genes, so all creatures must have had a common ancestor’). However, commonality of such features is to be expected with their origin from the same (supremely) intelligent Creator. All such homology arguments are only arguments for evolution when one excludes, a priori, origins by design. Indeed many of the patterns we see do not fit common ancestry. For example, the discontinuity of distribution of hemoglobin-like proteins, which are found in a few bacteria, molluscs, insects, and vertebrates. One could also note features such as vivipary, thermoregulation (some fish and mammals), eye designs, etc.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4205.asp
WS: There is no definitive evidence against ID/creation. Hence, the evolution model is not testable in a way that overwhelms creationist theories. The notion of evolution is not a purely scientific subject until all of its tenets are explained with actual science methods and actual data collected scientifically, not just guesses based on some observations. It is often said by evolutionists that science doesn't prove anything. That is because science for the evolutionist is yet a "proto science", much like a philosophy, evidenced by a disparity of beliefs among the constituents of the TofE.
For similar articles: http://www.answersingenesis.org/Search/default.asp?qu=hox...
Another one adding clarity to this issue is:
Human/chimp DNA similarity
Evidence for evolutionary relationship?
by Don Batten
First published in:
Creation 19(1):21—22
December 1996—February 1997
The idea that human beings and chimps have close to 100% similarity in their DNA seems to be common knowledge. The figures quoted vary: 97%, 98%, or even 99%, depending on just who is telling the story. What is the basis for these claims and do the data mean there really is not much difference between chimps and people? Are we just highly evolved apes? The following concepts will assist with a proper understanding of this issue:
Similarity (‘homology’) is not evidence for common ancestry (evolution) as against a common designer (creation). Think about a Porsche and Volkswagen ‘Beetle’ car. They both have air-cooled, flat, horizontally-opposed, 4-cylinder engines in the rear, independent suspension, two doors, boot (trunk) in the front, and many other similarities (‘homologies’). Why do these two very different cars have so many similarities? Because they had the same designer! Whether similarity is morphological (appearance), or biochemical, is of no consequence to the lack of logic in this argument for evolution.
If humans were entirely different from all other living things, or indeed if every living thing was entirely different, would this reveal the Creator to us? No! We would logically think that there must be many creators rather than one. The unity of the creation is testimony to the One True God who made it all (Romans 1:18—23).
If humans were entirely different from all other living things, how would we then live? If we are to eat food to provide nutrients and energy to live, what would we eat if every other organism on earth were fundamentally different biochemically? How could we digest them and how could we use the amino acids, sugars, etc., if they were different from the ones we have in our bodies? Biochemical similarity is necessary for us to have food!
We know that DNA in cells contains much of the information necessary for the development of an organism. In other words, if two organisms look similar, we would expect there to be some similarity also in their DNA. The DNA of a cow and a whale, two mammals, should be more alike than the DNA of a cow and a bacterium. If it were not so, then the whole idea of DNA being the information carrier in living things would have to be questioned. Likewise, humans and apes have a lot of morphological similarities, so we would expect there would be similarities in their DNA. Of all the animals, chimps are most like humans[1], so we would expect that their DNA would be most like human DNA.
Certain biochemical capacities are common to all living things, so there is even a degree of similarity between the DNA of yeast, for example, and that of humans. Because human cells can do many of the things that yeast can do, we share similarities in the DNA sequences that code for the enzymes that do the same jobs in both types of cells. Some of the sequences, for example, those that code for the MHC (Major Histocompatibility Complex) proteins, are almost identical.
What of the 97% (or 98% or 99%!) similarity claimed between humans and chimps? The figures published do not mean quite what is claimed in the popular publications (and even some respectable science journals). DNA contains its information in the sequence of four chemical compounds known as nucleotides, abbreviated C,G,A,T. Groups of three of these at a time are ‘read’ by complex translation machinery in the cell to determine the sequence of 20 different types of amino acids to be incorporated into proteins. The human DNA has at least 3,000,000,000 nucleotides in sequence. Chimp DNA has not been anywhere near fully sequenced so that a proper comparison can be made (using a lot of computer time to do itimagine comparing two sets of 1000 large books, sentence by sentence, for similarities and differences!).
WS: Any breaking news on the chimp genome?
Where did the ‘97% similarity’ come from then? It was inferred from a fairly crude technique called DNA hybridization where small parts of human DNA are split into single strands and allowed to re—form double strands (duplex) with chimp DNA [2]. However, there are various reasons why DNA does or does not hybridize, only one of which is degree of similarity (homology) [3]. Consequently, this somewhat arbitrary figure is not used by those working in molecular homology (other parameters, derived from the shape of the ‘melting’ curve, are used). Why has the 97% figure been popularised then? One can only guess that it served the purpose of evolutionary indoctrination of the scientifically illiterate.
WS:Remaining today in at least one modern biology textbook presented as FACT. When such precise percentages are presented like that, they 'stick' indelibly in the mind. I don't accept the number, but will probably never rid my mind of it, having repeated that figure aloud for too long. No doubt it had a calculated effect. Every time I referred to the shelf of assorted high school and college textbooks for that 'just right' explanation for a lesson, I revisited the many now debunked statements that shaped my own continuing education. If I had my way I would dump all of those books, but they are contributions from personal libraries of many present and former science teachers, and there is little more to refer to in the school library, even less in other local libraries. What they covered in my college years is far less than what is available. What is a modern teacher to do? Relying on atheist explanations is no substitute for me. There is no time for going back and catching up through continuing ed. courses. It takes every spare moment just to prepare for three classes tomorrow and conclude today's business. So naturally my guidance will be from among the creationist scientists, and that is my suggestion for any Christian science teacher. There are few that I know of. I am aware of only a dozen of about 60 local teachers that admit any religious affiliation, and none among the science teachers. Almost all the teachers gather every year at every public school in protest of "See You at the Pole Day" (student-led prayer around the flag pole), often making conversation that drowns out whatever is said by students. No Christian would prohibit prayer, regardless their feelings about separation of church and state.
Interestingly, the original papers did not contain the basic data and the reader had to accept the interpretation of the data ‘on faith’. Sarich et al. [4] obtained the original data and used them in their discussion of which parameters should be used in homology studies [5]. Sarich discovered considerable sloppiness in Sibley and Ahlquist’s generation of their data as well as their statistical analysis. Upon inspecting the data, I discovered that, even if everything else was above criticism, the 97% figure came from making a very basic statistical erroraveraging two figures without taking into account differences in the number of observations contributing to each figure. When a proper mean is calculated it is 96.2%, not 97%. However, there is no true replication in the data, so no confidence can be attached to the figures published by Sibley and Ahlquist.
What if human and chimp DNA was even 96% homologous? What would that mean? Would it mean that humans could have ‘evolved’ from a common ancestor with chimps? Not at all! The amount of information in the 3 billion base pairs in the DNA in every human cell has been estimated to be equivalent to that in 1,000 books of encyclopaedia size [6]. If humans were ‘only’ 4% different this still amounts to 120 million base pairs, equivalent to approximately 12 million words, or 40 large books of information. This is surely an impossible barrier for mutations (random changes) to cross [7].
WS: Keep in mind the necessity of those mutations being BENEFICIAL ones, which are the rare exception rather than the rule. Beneficial mutations are not shown to be a natural, normal process of reproduction resulting in continuation of any species or creation of new ones.
Does a high degree of similarity mean that two DNA sequences have the same meaning or function? No, not necessarily. Compare the following sentences:
There are many scientists today who question the evolutionary paradigm and its atheistic philosophical implications.
There are not many scientists today who question the evolutionary paradigm and its atheistic philosophical implications.
These sentences have 97% homology and yet have almost opposite meanings! There is a strong analogy here to the way in which large DNA sequences can be turned on or off by relatively small control sequences. The DNA similarity data don’t quite mean what the evolutionary popularizers claim!
[Ed. note: the point of this article was to refute one widely parroted ‘proof’ that humans evolved from apes, as should be clear from the title. It was simply beyond the scope of a single Creation magazine article to deal with all other ‘proofs’ of human evolution, although, amazingly, some atheistic sceptics have attacked this article for this alleged failing! But see Q&A: Anthropology (human ancestry, alleged ape-men) for addressing issues like alleged fossil ‘ape—men’.]
Summmary
The methods used to generate the figures so often quoted (and misquoted!) are very clumsy. They do not lend legitimacy to the claims that people and chimps are related in an evolutionary sense. The more we learn of the complexities of the biochemical systems in our cells, the more marvellous they become. Furthermore, even if we accept the data as legitimate there is no way that mutations could bridge the gap between chimps and humans. Chimps are just animals. We are made in the image of God (no chimps will be reading this).
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2453.asp

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Mammuthus, posted 10-16-2002 8:36 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Brad McFall, posted 10-16-2002 11:49 AM Wordswordsman has not replied
 Message 24 by Mammuthus, posted 10-16-2002 12:37 PM Wordswordsman has not replied
 Message 25 by Mammuthus, posted 10-17-2002 4:24 AM Wordswordsman has not replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 33 (20023)
10-16-2002 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
10-15-2002 5:47 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Wordswordman, if you really believe what you believe and you want to proselytize your beliefs to this board, then I challenge you. The first of Darwin's five theories (sensu Mayr) is that evolution (change) happens. 'Show us your proof, if you are right.' (Q 2:111). Show us that the first Darwin theory is false. Can you?
Mayr's first module:
1. Evolution as such. This is the theory that the world is not constant or recently created nor perpetually cycling, but rather is steadily changing, and that organisms are transformed in time.
Provide empirical data that tests part a. Part b is simply the antithetical concept. Evolutionists prefer that one, spending their time supporting it alone. What evidence do you have against part a?
The fact is that scientists can't disprove the creationist concept, claiming that to be outside the realm of science. But do you REALLY know what science is? Do you blindly accept the scientist's definition of 'science' that now better supports their theory? Their definition doesn't fit all fields of science. I find it interesting they must redefine science to better fit the various disciplines. Do you have one definition that supports ALL fields of science without offending evolutionists? Do you have one definition of 'species' that satisfies all sytematists (including Linneans, i.e. cladists/non-cladists- phylogenetic/neo-linnean/Linnean taxonomists) as well as non-biology pro-evolutionists in general? Must you, too, use switch and bait tactics to present evolution coherently?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-15-2002 5:47 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Mammuthus, posted 10-17-2002 4:45 AM Wordswordsman has not replied
 Message 27 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-17-2002 6:59 AM Wordswordsman has replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 33 (20114)
10-17-2002 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Andya Primanda
10-17-2002 6:59 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
First, I want to clear a misunderstanding. Sword, I thought you were a YEC. However, it seems that you are not, given that you acknowledge that life through the ages are not always the same. Therefore, I seem to be attacking a strawman.
What gave you that idea? My note on extinction of organisms? That would be an acceptable fact for YEC, and supporting entrophy. I can't accept the evolutionist's extreme age of life on earth, but admittedly can't dogmatically declare from the Bible that the earth itself is not greatly older than life which began in 'creation week'. There is just enough mystery in Genesis 1:1 to allow the possibility that "in the beginning" the earth itself, water, and air was made. It is possible that later God moved upon the earth as it was, void, with 'creation week' making it not-void, but full of features that define what earth is.
quote:
If I want to refute the first theory, evolution as such, then the evidence I need would be a fossil record that shows no change at all since the beginning of life. The evidence is not like that; therefore I still cannot refute it. The fossil record showed that once there were trilobites, dinosaurs, and australopiths on the Earth (also, they were never contemporaneous) but they no loger exist. I think you agree with me on that. You seem to be more into the position of ID/IC/PC.
I won't discard the higher spiritual knowledge from God's Word that there was a world-wide flood. That flood is responsible for the great majority of sedimentary rock-bearing fossils of organisims that were contemporary. There are many suitable explanations, all theory, opposed by evolutionary theories that simply refute the Flood because of a suppposed lack of evidence of such a flood. I subscribe to the possibility ALL the fossil record is of that one event. One reason is that the conditions necessary for lithification of tender organisms is not a common, natural scenario. It isn't a repeatable condition over large aras such as the fossil record shows existed at some point. If it were normal and common, the process would be easily demonstrated today all over earth. Evolutionists disagree, citing the fossil sorting mechanisms, but never proving the creationist theories wrong. It is simply theory v. theory, neither satisfactorily testable or provable. A person has only to believe one way or another, both requiring some faith. My belief should not contradict my spiritual knowledge, which is absolute. Scientific data isn't absolute, subject to constant change, correction, re-correction over and over, being too metaphysical (exemplified in the advent of quantum mechanics and its smashing of reality for many scientists). It isn't the sort of quality knowledge I'm willing to substitute for matters of eternity.
quote:
I agree that science cannot prove or disprove creation. It's a matter of supernatural beliefs.
How could nature, created by God, be "supernatural"? I don't accept that a creationist view of creation is in the supernatural class. A God-directed view of nature might be supernaturally endowed, but the knowledge itself isn't necessarily supernatural. What is labelled as supernatural by evolutionists is simply their way of dealing with knowledge imparted by a God whom they often say does not exist. They hide behind the skirts of science, even though it changes style frequently. At least one fool exists on this forum thread who declares openly the non-existence of God. The Bible identifies him as a fool, and commands me to avoid him and his obviously suspect, distorted rantings. He would have us believe it is now essential to understand and keep up with modern genetics in order to comprehend the evolutionist view, ignoring creationist observations that their findings often support the creationist view, though the applications of that knowledge differ. They fail to reach the world with their message, couched in dubious experiments and endless streams of terminology, adding newly coined terms often not yet found in the genetics glossaries. That is the same agenda of the Gnostics and sorcerers of old. Smoke and mirrors through what is currently called science. It is now far beyond the reach of any high school class, and probably any four year college curriculum, requiring a masters in a narrow science field to adopt particular slices of the evolutionist argument. It isn't worth it. WHY is it necessary that all people accept such an ever-increasingly complex string of explanations as an obvious attempt to prove there is no God? I don't call that education. It's propaganda. I distrust any person who subscribes to the evolutionist view while claiming they are Christian. In order to be a Christian one must obviously be a follower of Christ, who verified the holy scriptures. If such a person accepts the Bible is contrarily mostly myth, then he has no real foundation for being a believer, siding with atheists who share the evolutionary views in their claims there is no God based on the alleged faults of the Bible.
He remains on very shaky sand ready to sink at any moment. There is no middle ground. One either believes or doesn't believe.
My point is that part a of Darwin's first law is not provable (as you admit here), being a blindly proposed antithesis of an equally unprovable part b that can't be proven. Science can't prove anything, as claimed in this thread. It is all circumstantial evidence and supposition, often revised when advances in science demonstrate former interpretations of data were faulty. I propose science is ever moving closer to the real science already suspected by creationists. But science will never come to the point of proving or disproving what the Bible says, else the requirement of spiritual faith itself is faulty. Well, that isn't an optiion for me, having accepted the faith requirement long ago, that buttressed by experiential confirmations. That, too, can't be proven as in a case of law in the courts, but is sufficient for me to hold firmly to the report of the Bible, which then requires I take a perspective of reality that agrees with the higher truth of the Bible.
I came here to deal with the idiotic direct assaults on the Bible, not to debate never-ending arguments around evolution. I am already firmly convinced evolutions is a myth, regardless what scientists have to say about it. I must regard them as sorcerers, those who say there is no God, who claim the Bible is faulty, who plunge into the unknown proposing concepts that are often (too late) later retracted in a child-like level of acountability, never making effort to undo the harm done by their past antics, making excuses "that is the nature of science- self correcting". I subscribe to the perspective of the Bible, never needing correction.
quote:
'Species'? Mayr's biological species concept. (A species is an isolated reproductive community). I think Linneans, cladists, and phylogenetic taxonomists accept the BSC as a good definition of species. It has problems though with organisms without sex such as bacteria and some fungi.
Linneans can't accept that definition (BSC). Reproduction is subject to variables outside the internal heredity of organisms. Environmental variables have nothing to do with describing a species.
I wouldn't wish to understate all the beliefs out there with such a simplified statement, willing to refer you to http://www.users.bigpond.com/thewilkins/papers/metataxo.htm
which puts the problem in an interesting light.
Also interesting, from
Acts and Facts Magazine | The Institute for Creation Research
ON THE CHANGING DEFINITION OF THE TERM "SPECIES"
- IMPACT No. 211 January 1991
by Kenneth B. Cumming, Ph.D.*
And this about BSC from
Observed Instances of Speciation
Observed Instances of Speciation
Joseph Boxhorn
[Last Update: September 1, 1995]
2.2 The Biological Species Concept Over the last few decades the theoretically preeminent species definition has been the biological species concept (BSC). This concept defines a species as a reproductive community.
2.2.1 History of the Biological Species Concept The BSC has undergone a number of changes over the years. The earliest precursor that I could find was in Du Rietz 1930. Du Rietz defined a species as
"... the smallest natural populations permanently separated from each other by a distinct discontinuity in the series of biotypes."
Barriers to interbreeding are implicit in this definition and explicit in Du Rietz's dicussion of it.
A few years later, Dobzhansky defined a species as
"... that stage of evolutionary progress at which the once actually or potentially interbreeding array of forms becomes segregated into two or more separate arrays which are physiologically incapable of interbreeding." (Dobzhansky 1937)
It is important to note that this is a highly restrictive definition of species. It emphasizes experimental approaches and ignores what goes on in nature. By the publication of the third edition of the book this appeared in, Dobzhansky (1951) had relaxed this definition to the point that is substantially agreed with Mayr's.
The definition of a species that is accepted as the BSC was promulgated by Mayr (1942). He defined species as
"... groups of actually or potentially interbreeding natural populations which are reproductively isolated from other such groups."
Note that the emphasis in this definition is on what happens in nature. Mayr later amended this definition to include an ecological component. In this form of the definition a species is
"... a reproductive community of populations (reproductively isolated from others) that occupies a specific niche in nature."
The BSC is most strongly accepted among vertebrate zoologists and entomologists. Two facts account for this. First, these are the groups that the authors of the BSC worked with :-). (Note: Mayr is an ornithologist and Dobzhansky worked extensively with Drosophila). More importantly, obligate sexuality is the predominant form of reproduction in these groups. It is not coincidental that the BSC is less widely accepted among botanists. Terrestrial plants exhibit much greater diversity in their "mode of reproduction" than do vertebrates and insects.
2.2.2 Criticisms of the Biological Species Concept There has been considerable criticism of the theoretical validity and practical utility of the BSC. (Cracraft 1989, Donoghue 1985, Levin 1979, Mishler and Donoghue 1985, Sokal and Crovello 1970).
The application of the BSC to a number of groups, including land plants, is problematical because of interspecific hybridization between clearly delimited species (McCourt and Hoshaw 1990, Mishler 1985).
There is an abundance of asexual populations that this definition just doesn't apply to (Budd and Mishler 1990). Examples of taxa which are obligately asexual include bdelloid rotifers, euglenoid flagellates, some members of the Oocystaceae (coccoid green algae), chloromonad flagellates and some araphid pennate diatoms. Asexual forms of normally sexual organisms are known. Obligately asexual populations of Daphnia are found in some arctic lakes. The BSD can be of no help in delimiting species in these groups. A similar situation is found in the prokaryotes. Though genes can be exchanged among bacteria by a number of mechanisms, sexuality, as defined in eukaryotes, in unknown in the prokaryotes. One popular microbiology text doesn't even mention the BSC (Brock and Madigan 1988).
The applicability of the BSC is also questionable in those land plants that primarily self-pollinate (Cronquist 1988).
A more serious criticism is that the BSC is inapplicable in practice. This charge asserts that, in most cases, the BSC cannot be practically applied to delimit species. The BSC suggests breeding experiments as the test of species membership. But this is a test that is rarely made. The number of crosses needed to delimit membership in a species can be astronomical. The following example will illustrate the problem.
Here in Wisconsin we have about 16,000 lakes and ponds. A common (and tasty ;-)) inhabitant of many of these bodies of water is the bluegill sunfish. Let's ask a question -- do all these bluegill populations constitute one species or several morphologically similar species? Assume that only 1,000 of these lakes and ponds contain bluegills. Assuming that each lake constitutes a population, an investigator would have to perform 499,500 separate crosses to determine whether the populations could interbreed. But to do this right we should really do reciprocal crosses (i.e. cross a male from population A with a female from population B and a male from population B with a female from population A). This brings the total crosses we need to make up to 999,000. But don't we also need to make replicates? Having three replicates brings the total to 2,997,000 crosses. In addition, you just can't put a pair of bluegills into a bucket and expect them to mate. In nature, male bluegills excavate and defend nests in large mating colonies. After the nests are excavated the females come in to the colony to spawn. Here the females choose among potential mates. This means that we would need to simulate a colony in our test. Assume that 20 fish would be sufficient for a single test. We find that we would need about 60,000,000 fish to test whether all these populations are members of the same species! (We would also need a large number of large aquaria to run these crosses in). But bluegills are not restricted to Wisconsin...
I could go on, but I think the point is now obvious. The fact of the matter is that the time, effort and money needed to delimit species using the BSC is, to say the least, prohibitive.
Another reason why using the BSC to delimit species is impractical is that breeding experiments can often be inconclusive. Interbreeding in nature can be heavily influenced by variable and unstable environmental factors. (Any angler who has waited for the bluegills to get on to the beds can confirm this one). If we can't duplicate natural conditions of breeding, a failure to breed doesn't mean that the critters can't (or don't) interbreed in the wild. The difficulties that were encountered in breeding pandas in captivity illustrate this. In addition, experimentally showing that A doesn't interbreed with B doesn't preclude both interbreeding with C. This gets even more complicated in groups that don't have nice, straightforward sexes. An example of this occurs in a number of protozoan species. These critters have numerous mating types. There can be very complicated compatability of mating types. Finally, breeding experiments can be inconclusive because actual interbreeding and gene flow among phenetically similar, genetically compatible local populations is often more restricted than the BSC would suggest (Cronquist 1988).
In practice, even strong adherents of the BSC use phenetic similarities and discontinuities for delimiting species. If the organisms are phenotypically similar, they are considered conspecific until a reproductive barrier is demonstrated.
Another criticism of the BSC comes from the cladistic school of taxonomy (e.g. Donoghue 1985). The cladists argue that sexual compatibility is a primitive trait. Organisms that are no longer closely related may have retained the ability for genetic recombination with each other through sex. This is not a derived characteristic. Because of this it is invalid for defining monophyletic taxa.
A final problem with the BSC is that groups that do not occur together in time cannot be evaluated. We simply cannot know whether two such groups would interbreed freely if they came together under natural conditions. This makes it impossible to delimit the boundaries of extinct groups using the BSC. One question will illustrate the problem. Do Homo erectus and Homo sapiens represent the same or different species? This question is unresolvable using the biological definition.
Several alternatives to the biological species concept have been suggested. I will discuss two."
Boxhorn goes on to list favorite instances of speciation that are not events of new species, most of which violate the various definitions of species and fail to rule out other causes of reproductive failure and other genetic causes of change.
see http://www.trueorigin.org/isakrbtl.asp for a good expose' of Boxhorn's list.

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