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Author Topic:   If god has a plan, then doesn't that make prayer worthless?
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Message 6 of 63 (197543)
04-07-2005 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
04-07-2005 6:03 AM

Re: Prayer is part of the plan
I read the link. Before going any further can I summarise so that we can agree exactly what is saying. I'll use the language of the link to start with and then maybe we can define it all a little better in later posts. Tell me or explain if I'm going wrong. I think it's important that we understand exactly what the nature of the contract is between the person praying and god to find out if prayer is worthless.
1. Prayer doesn't work unless you have a "relationship with god".
2. A "relationship with god" means he has forgiven all your sins and you have completely given your life to him.
3. When you pray you are asking god to reveal his plan to you so you can know what he wants.
4. If you have a "relationship with god" you will know what god wants anyway
5 If you have a "relationship with god" you will only ask in prayer for what you know he wants.
6. If you pray and it doesn't get any better then he didn't guide you because you did not have a "relationship with god". You presumed to know god's plan when you didn't really know it.
7. Only god knows the whole plan and he doesn't do something because we determine that it must be his will.
8. If it doesn't get any better after praying then keep your "relationship with god" because you may not have seen the full outcome yet. In the meantime you'll find comfort in god anyway.
7. We can trust god because we know what he is like.
Is this a definitive explanation of prayer for every Christian? Are there other definitions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 04-07-2005 6:03 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 12:32 AM Nicked has replied
 Message 14 by riVeRraT, posted 04-08-2005 7:31 AM Nicked has not replied

Inactive Member

Message 18 of 63 (197724)
04-08-2005 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
04-08-2005 12:32 AM

Re: Prayer is part of the plan:Nicked>>>>
I have just tried to summarise the website that you linked. I was offering my summary for you to critique. I assumed that because you linked to the website you agreed with its ideas regarding prayer? I would also be interested to know if any other christians agree with this summary.
To clarify my questions are...
1. does my summary agree with the website you posted the link for?
2. If so, is this how prayer works for christians?
You might want to address your contradiction in items 6 and 8. If we can agree then it might be possible to condense this further because I can see some overlaps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 12:32 AM Phat has not replied

Inactive Member

Message 27 of 63 (198017)
04-10-2005 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Angeldust
04-09-2005 11:32 AM

That's exactly the point!
That first paragraph is the point I was trying to get to in my posts.
I have discussed this before in a Christian Forum and it was impossible, even in that relatively non-fundamentalist forum, to reach a consensus on what the intention of prayer is. This was even before attempting to discuss the logical outcomes of prayer and how their god must 'be', based upon these outcomes.
It is an entertaining debate topic, but how christians personally reconcile an omnipotent, infallible and predestinal god with human free will is their issue...As long as they keep it out of my government and out of my school (unfortunately, they don't seem to be able to do this right now).
One entertaining question is to ask how they reconcile the (sometimes diametrically) opposing opinions between denominations and even themselves. Either none of them are wholly correct or some of them are wholly correct, in which case there are a lot of christians headed for their hell, whatever that is.
Broadly speaking...
Theologically they obfuscate behind denominational and personal interpretations of scripture, that's where this thread will end up btw.
Politically, they hide the problems by sucking moderate* christians into loose coalitions based upon a loose agenda and then use the membership numbers as leverage to push an essentially fundamentalist agenda.
*(Personal definition here but I think of moderate christians as being essentially spiritual but agnostic)
OK, now I'm officially off of my soap box.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Angeldust, posted 04-09-2005 11:32 AM Angeldust has replied

Replies to this message:
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Inactive Member

Message 28 of 63 (198019)
04-10-2005 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by StormWolfx2x
04-04-2005 1:36 AM

May I ask for a reference for the source of the logical statements you posted?
I'd like to read more of the essay this was taken from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-04-2005 1:36 AM StormWolfx2x has not replied

Inactive Member

Message 59 of 63 (198777)
04-12-2005 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by StormWolfx2x
04-12-2005 2:48 AM

The question posed by the thread topic is "If god has a plan, then doesn't that make prayer worthless?" and your opening paragraph "What would be the point on praying for an outcome if god had already decided the outcome. Unless god does not have a plan, because if god is omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible, then truly his plan cannot be changed based on the desires of a mere mortal."
Actually, as it stands I think your logic is an irrelevance because you have restricted the definition of prayer to an activity that is undertaken to effect an alteration to a plan, so effecting an outcome (favourable or beneficial?). I don't believe you can extrapolate your logic to answer the question posed by the thread topic until you have defined what prayer actually means.
Do you need to change the topic heading if you only want to proceed to discuss your restricted definition and the logic arising from it?
EDIT - I won't change my post because it still stands, but I acknowledge that purpledawn said very much the same thing in thread 31, I should have read back, apologies for the repeat.
This message has been edited by Nicked, 04-12-2005 04:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-12-2005 2:48 AM StormWolfx2x has replied

Replies to this message:
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