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Author Topic:   If god has a plan, then doesn't that make prayer worthless?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 31 of 63 (198052)
04-10-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by StormWolfx2x
04-04-2005 1:36 AM


Prayer of Request
quote:
What would be the point on praying for an outcome if god had already decided the outcome. Unless god does not have a plan, because if god is omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible, then truly his plan cannot be changed based on the desires of a mere mortal.
In the Bible there are three kinds of prayer: Prayers of Praise, Prayers of Thanks, and Prayers of Request.
Obviously your thread is dealing with prayers of request. I've notice that many who are answering you are avoiding your main point.
quote:
3. God has a plan and can effect outcomes, choosing to do so partially on prayer, but he is not omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible so his plan may be altered by the actions of mortals, and he counters this by answering prayers.
The OT God seems to have a general plan as outlined roughly in the 10 commandments. Worship God, don't kill, steal, etc. It doesn't seem to present a God who is a micromanager determining ahead of time all the tiny details of mankind (death, birth, etc.)
Moses and Lot both asked God to alter His actions and God did.
The NT seems to start the predetermination scenerio.
If God has a general plan and can effect outcomes, does that necessarily rule out that he is omnipotent or infallible?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2936 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 32 of 63 (198056)
04-10-2005 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
04-09-2005 4:05 AM


Re: God has a plan and we have a rational mind.
He is wise beyond our comprehension.
If he is beyond comprehension, how do you know he is wise?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 04-09-2005 4:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 04-10-2005 12:45 PM tsig has replied
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 12:48 PM tsig has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 33 of 63 (198058)
04-10-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by tsig
04-10-2005 12:41 PM


If he is beyond comprehension, how do you know he is wise?
Oh, don't you know? He's beyond comprehension until something happens that they can credit to God to stick it to the atheists; when that happens suddenly all the believers are experts about God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by tsig, posted 04-10-2005 12:41 PM tsig has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18343
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 34 of 63 (198059)
04-10-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by tsig
04-10-2005 12:41 PM


Re: God has a plan and we have a rational mind.
DHA writes:
If he is beyond comprehension, how do you know he is wise?
Lets put it this way....If He is stupid, than we are all in a heap of trouble!

This message is a reply to:
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2936 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 35 of 63 (198060)
04-10-2005 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by riVeRraT
04-09-2005 12:48 PM


Plan failure
I think God planned for us to have eternal life.
So god's plan failed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by riVeRraT, posted 04-09-2005 12:48 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18343
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 36 of 63 (198066)
04-10-2005 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by tsig
04-10-2005 12:50 PM


Re: Plan failure
DHA writes:
So god's plan failed?
I think that God foreknew the result from Eden. It is not as if He slapped His almighty forehead and said "Doh". Those humans! Now what do I do?
He foreknew that sending His Son to bail us out was the original plan to begin with! Eternal life is an option and a choice.
If one fervantly believes in no God and that when they die they become wormfood, Eternal life will STILL be an option upon their death. To reject it then on the grounds that freedom of rational thought supercedes truth would be ludicrous yet allowable.
God will not force anyone to play nicely in Heaven with the other children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by tsig, posted 04-10-2005 12:50 PM tsig has replied

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2936 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 37 of 63 (198067)
04-10-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
04-10-2005 12:48 PM


Re: God has a plan and we have a rational mind.
Lets put it this way....If He is stupid, than we are all in a heap of trouble!
Why?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18343
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 38 of 63 (198069)
04-10-2005 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by crashfrog
04-10-2005 12:45 PM


Go tell it to the Lily Pond!
crashfrog writes:
Oh, don't you know? He's beyond comprehension until something happens that they can credit to God to stick it to the atheists; when that happens suddenly all the believers are experts about God.
Certainly not experts, although every chance that I get to tell the little froggies that God loves them I do so.
I certainly have no more motive to "stick it to the atheists" than they would have about refuting me.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2936 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 39 of 63 (198071)
04-10-2005 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by crashfrog
04-10-2005 12:45 PM


Oh, don't you know? He's beyond comprehension until something happens that they can credit to God to stick it to the atheists; when that happens suddenly all the believers are experts about God.
Yeah, first the believers tell us what god wants, then when pressed says we cannot understand god's mind.
Doublethink in action.

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 40 of 63 (198072)
04-10-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by tsig
04-10-2005 12:50 PM


Re: Plan failure
We go from glory to glory.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2936 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 41 of 63 (198077)
04-10-2005 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
04-10-2005 1:01 PM


Re: Plan failure
I think that God foreknew the result from Eden. It is not as if He slapped His almighty forehead and said "Doh". Those humans! Now what do I do?
He foreknew that sending His Son to bail us out was the original plan to begin with! Eternal life is an option and a choice.
If one fervantly believes in no God and that when they die they become wormfood, Eternal life will STILL be an option upon their death. To reject it then on the grounds that freedom of rational thought supercedes truth would be ludicrous yet allowable.
God will not force anyone to play nicely in Heaven with the other children.
Your god seems anthropomorfic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 1:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 1:25 PM tsig has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18343
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 42 of 63 (198080)
04-10-2005 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by tsig
04-10-2005 1:19 PM


the anthropomorphic Almighty
Your god seems anthropomorfic
Well how else can He relate to us? That is why His character is Jesus and not Flipper or Gentle Ben.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by tsig, posted 04-10-2005 1:19 PM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by tsig, posted 04-10-2005 1:43 PM Phat has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2936 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 43 of 63 (198085)
04-10-2005 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
04-10-2005 1:25 PM


Re: the anthropomorphic Almighty
Well how else can He relate to us? That is why His character is Jesus and not Flipper or Gentle Ben.
So god's plan is to give us a choice that he knows we will screw up, then kill himself to correct the problem and afterwards burn all those who can't see it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 1:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 2:30 PM tsig has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18343
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 44 of 63 (198088)
04-10-2005 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by tsig
04-10-2005 1:43 PM


Re: the anthropomorphic Almighty
DHA writes:
So god's plan is to give us a choice that he knows we will screw up, then kill himself to correct the problem and afterwards burn all those who can't see it?
Not exactly. Gods plan is to give us a choice that we can accept if we are willing to give up our sturbborn idea that we know the answer.
He never killed Himself but, rather, gave His life over and allowed that same stubborn spirit that thought that it knew the answer to kill Him through those people who were themselves zealous know-it-alls. Still, He never sends people to Hell. People send themselves there by continuing to follow that deifying spirit of know-it-all that proclaims itself to be as god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by tsig, posted 04-10-2005 1:43 PM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2936 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 45 of 63 (198106)
04-10-2005 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
04-10-2005 2:30 PM


Re: the anthropomorphic Almighty
He never killed Himself but, rather, gave His life over and allowed that same stubborn spirit that thought that it knew the answer to kill Him through those people who were themselves zealous know-it-alls. Still, He never sends people to Hell. People send themselves there by continuing to follow that deifying spirit of know-it-all that proclaims itself to be as god.
Jesus allowed satan to kill him?
Still, He never sends people to Hell. People send themselves there by continuing to follow that deifying spirit of know-it-all that proclaims itself to be as god.
So he just creates hell and greases the skids under all who do not believe as you do and is not responsible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 2:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 4:54 PM tsig has replied

  
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