If god has a plan, then doesn't that make prayer worthless?

What would be the point on praying for an outcome if god had already decided the outcome. Unless god does not have a plan, because if god is omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible, then truly his plan cannot be changed based on the desires of a mere mortal.Logically then either1. prayer does not effect the outcome of events, because if it did it would violate gods plan.2. God does not have a plan, is omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible and as such can influence the outcome of events, and he chooses to do so based partially on prayer.or3. God has a plan and can effect outcomes, choosing to do so partially on prayer, but he is not omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible so his plan may be altered by the actions of mortals, and he counters this by answering prayers.At least 1 of those statements MUST be true.I already posted this as a reply but I think it would make a good topic as well.{Added some blank lines. Did some capitalization at beginnings of sentences and periods at end of sentences. - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 04-07-2005 02:59 AM

partly a bump, but I would like an admin to acknowlege this post.If its not acceptable can you please tell me why, just for my own personal future reference?
-thanksThis message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-07-2005 03:46 AM

I did some tweeking of the format of message 1.As I see it, it is perfectly proper to bump a "Proposed New Topic", if it had gotten no admin response after a couple of day. Such is the case with yours.I see no reason not to promote the topic, but I am going to defer action to one of the admins who is more up on the currently/recently active "Faith and Belief" topics. Perhaps it is best as you presented it in another topic, perhaps it deserves to be its own topic.Adminnemooseus

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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Hi StormWolfx2x....I think that you have some great questions! Lets get this topic rolling!Here are my questions back at you1) Why can't prayer be part of the overall plan?2) Why can't non-prayer also be part of that same plan?3) Are human decisions, foreknown by God, included as part of the overall plan?4) In the final analysis, is not each and every one of us accountable only to our emotions and decisions of THIS present moment?
In other words, if I decided not to pray yesterday, that decision is still open for review at this point in time. Ultimately, my relationship with God (or, freely chosen without Him) is based upon my decision at any given point in time.I see it all like a big game of musical chairs. If the music stops, am I standing on faith or sitting on my own throne? What other possible outcomes could occur that are not part of the overall plan? That is a good website. Here it is: (check it out)Get Your Spiritual Questions Answered - Short Articles & VideosAdd to Topic: Citizzzen had another topic starter which was like this one, so I am adding his response to this thread:
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-07-2005 04:13 AM

I read the link. Before going any further can I summarise so that we can agree exactly what Everystudent.com is saying. I'll use the language of the link to start with and then maybe we can define it all a little better in later posts. Tell me or explain if I'm going wrong. I think it's important that we understand exactly what the nature of the contract is between the person praying and god to find out if prayer is worthless.1. Prayer doesn't work unless you have a "relationship with god".2. A "relationship with god" means he has forgiven all your sins and you have completely given your life to him.3. When you pray you are asking god to reveal his plan to you so you can know what he wants.4. If you have a "relationship with god" you will know what god wants anyway5 If you have a "relationship with god" you will only ask in prayer for what you know he wants.6. If you pray and it doesn't get any better then he didn't guide you because you did not have a "relationship with god". You presumed to know god's plan when you didn't really know it.7. Only god knows the whole plan and he doesn't do something because we determine that it must be his will.8. If it doesn't get any better after praying then keep your "relationship with god" because you may not have seen the full outcome yet. In the meantime you'll find comfort in god anyway.7. We can trust god because we know what he is like.Is this a definitive explanation of prayer for every Christian? Are there other definitions?

Maybe God just likes to hear people praying to him because it expands his ego and makes him feel special. Kind of like the way he used to want people to burn offerings because he liked the smell.

I asked a similar question in another proposed thread (See above) because I had the same thought. I discussed this with my Christian friend again, and a pastor friend of mine. It seems to me the key questions here are:Q: Does God ever give people what they don't need, simply because they pray for it?
A: My pastor friend says, "Yes, if only to teach them a lesson".Q: Does God deny people's prayers, even if they need/want what they are asking for?
A: (Same source) Yes, he has a master plan for people's lives, and it might involve hardship to learn a lesson.So that would suggest that prayer has the ability to make day to day changes in your life. I don't know what the scriptural basis for this belief is, though. Without that, it's an interesting belief, but it's just a theory...Citizzzen

just a short response.when we're children, what do we ask our parents for? how do we talk to them when we grow up?does prayer have to be asking for something? should it be at all?

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-07-2005 09:32 PM

I still think that your scenarios fall into my original set of options1) Why can't prayer be part of the overall plan?
Would fall into option #1
1. Prayer does not affect the outcome of events, because if it did it would violate gods plan.
2)Why can't non-prayer also be part of that same plan?
Again would fall into option #1
3) Are human decisions, foreknown by God, included as part of the overall plan?
If yes, then again option #1
If no, then option #2
God does not have a plan, is omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible and as such can influence the outcome of events, and he chooses to do so based partially on prayer.
4) In the final analysis, is not each and every one of us accountable only to our emotions and decisions of THIS present moment?
In other words, if I decided not to pray yesterday, that decision is still open for review at this point in time. Ultimately, my relationship with God (or, freely chosen without Him) is based upon my decision at any given point in time.
Since this is not a scenario I can’t fit it into an option. However I would contest that logically if God has a plan for everything, and he is infallible, then free will does not exist, only the illusion of free will. So to answer your question no we would not be responsible for our actions because all three conditions
God has a plan, god is infallible, mortals have free will.
Cannot, logically, be true at the same time.PS: thank you admins for being so courteous with my online incompetence.

"does prayer have to be asking for something? should it be at all?"thats kind of what im getting at, thats why I said "praying for an outcome" that was meant to reference prayers that were asking for something, specificaly something that was not already going to happen anyways.

"Maybe God just likes to hear people praying to him because it expands his ego and makes him feel special. Kind of like the way he used to want people to burn offerings because he liked the smell."I know this was meant to be sarcastic, but it actually is a logical answer, and it falls squarely in option 1#.(I guess it would be god equvilent of listeing to cristian rock )

To me, everyone has a relationship with God.
Some choose to ignore him, thats their relationship.But usually at some point in your life, you stop and ask God a question, and hope for a response.We even get answers, yet we choose to ignore them, and justify his non-existance.

Do you have any biblical references for God having a plan?Jesus prayed everyday, even though he was the son of God, and knew what was going to happen to him. He even told everyone too