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Author | Topic: Homo floresiensis | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Loudmouth Inactive Member |
I agree with Crash, this is a very interesting find. I watched the National Geographic special a few days ago and was amazed at the amount of data that they have already mined from these fossils. The site is timing out right now, but you can probably find more info at National Geographic . The program included the construction of a life-like cast, for those who are interested. The artist who made the model used a cast of the actual Hobbit skull. Of course, some artistic license was used, but the body proportions were all true to the fossils found. The best line from the show was (paraphrased)"We have always thought that humans or hominids were above natural selection. It is amazing that hominids shrunk in size just as other mammals in an island ecosystem."
From the scant number of papers out on H. floresiensis it would seem that H. erectus is the best candidate as the most recent ancestor. I apollogize if this info has already been posted. First, the cranium and brain of the Hobbit resemble H. erectus more than other homids or humans, including microcephalics and pygmys.
Science. 2005 Mar 3; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links The Brain of LB1, Homo floresiensis. Falk D, Hildebolt C, Smith K, Morwood MJ, Sutikna T, Brown P, Jatmiko, Saptomo EW, Brunsden B, Prior F. Department of Anthropology, Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL 32306, USA. The brain of Homo floresiensis is assessed by comparing a virtual endocast from the type specimen (LB1) with endocasts from great apes, Homo erectus, Homo sapiens, a human pygmy, a human microcephalic, Sts 5 (Australopithecus africanus) and WT 17000 (Paranthropus aeithiopicus). Morphometric , allometric and shape data indicate that LB1 is not a microcephalic or pygmy. LB1's brain size versus body size scales like an australopithecine, but its endocast shape resembles that of Homo erectus. LB1 has derived frontal and temporal lobes and a lunate sulcus in a derived position, which are consistent with capabilities for higher cognitive processing. The following abstract just gives the dates of the fossils. What I find interesting is that this species disappeared at about the same time that humans were actively colonizing the area. This could be indirect evidence that neanderthals met the same fate, humans outcompeted the native populations instead of interbreeding. Just a hypothesis, but it seems to be consistent with the data.
Nature. 2004 Oct 28;431(7012):1087-91. Related Articles, Links Comment in:Nature. 2004 Oct 28;431(7012):1043-4. Archaeology and age of a new hominin from Flores in eastern Indonesia. Morwood MJ, Soejono RP, Roberts RG, Sutikna T, Turney CS, Westaway KE, Rink WJ, Zhao JX, van den Bergh GD, Due RA, Hobbs DR, Moore MW, Bird MI, Fifield LK. Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology, School of Human and Environmental Studies, University of New England, Armidale, New South Wales 2351, Australia. mmorwood@pobox.une.edu.au Excavations at Liang Bua, a large limestone cave on the island of Flores in eastern Indonesia, have yielded evidence for a population of tiny hominins, sufficiently distinct anatomically to be assigned to a new species, Homo floresiensis. The finds comprise the cranial and some post-cranial remains of one individual, as well as a premolar from another individual in older deposits. Here we describe their context, implications and the remaining archaeological uncertainties. Dating by radiocarbon (14C), luminescence, uranium-series and electron spin resonance (ESR) methods indicates that H. floresiensis existed from before 38,000 years ago (kyr) until at least 18 kyr. Associated deposits contain stone artefacts and animal remains, including Komodo dragon and an endemic, dwarfed species of Stegodon. H. floresiensis originated from an early dispersal of Homo erectus (including specimens referred to as Homo ergaster and Homo georgicus) that reached Flores, and then survived on this island refuge until relatively recently. It overlapped significantly in time with Homo sapiens in the region, but we do not know if or how the two species interacted. There is a third paper, but it is a little mundane. But just in case:
Nature. 2004 Oct 28;431(7012):1055-61. Related Articles, Links Comment in:Nature. 2004 Oct 28;431(7012):1043-4. A new small-bodied hominin from the Late Pleistocene of Flores, Indonesia. Brown P, Sutikna T, Morwood MJ, Soejono RP, Jatmiko, Saptomo EW, Due RA. Archaeology & Palaeoanthropology, School of Human & Environmental Studies, University of New England, Armidale, New South Wales 2351, Australia. pbrown3@pobox.une.edu.au Currently, it is widely accepted that only one hominin genus, Homo, was present in Pleistocene Asia, represented by two species, Homo erectus and Homo sapiens. Both species are characterized by greater brain size, increased body height and smaller teeth relative to Pliocene Australopithecus in Africa. Here we report the discovery, from the Late Pleistocene of Flores, Indonesia, of an adult hominin with stature and endocranial volume approximating 1 m and 380 cm3, respectively--equal to the smallest-known australopithecines. The combination of primitive and derived features assigns this hominin to a new species, Homo floresiensis. The most likely explanation for its existence on Flores is long-term isolation, with subsequent endemic dwarfing, of an ancestral H. erectus population. Importantly, H. floresiensis shows that the genus Homo is morphologically more varied and flexible in its adaptive responses than previously thought. For those in the know, Science and Nature are two of the most prestigious journals for primary literature. Only the best papers are accepted. This goes to show how important this new find is. This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 04-05-2005 05:00 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Before jumping too quickly on competition as the cause of their demise, it's important to note that there were also some significant natural events in the area of the South Pacific around 15-18K years ago. There are indication that it might have been a rather active tectonic time with some big time volcanic activity.
It's too soon IMHO to even speculate on what lead to the disappearance of the Hobbits. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
thanks for the update. the casting is interesting, but obviously fairly rough.
the direct link is http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/...ture1/multimedia.html and there is more information with photos at http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/...eature1/gallery1.html {adding}notice how this ties into the {age correlations} and other threads on dating -- they are looking at other ways to determine the ages and climate. http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/...eature1/gallery3.html This message has been edited by RAZD, 04*05*2005 07:05 PM we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Godfearingatheist Inactive Member |
Implications or Speculations N0 'actual pictures' has become particularly irksome
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
exactly.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
in terms of body size, and development 10 and 11 year olds are able to be self sufficient (although "adult" thinking is not fully developed until 21 or so), but the brain size we are dealing with is somewhere between the rugrat and these "Lord of the Flies" abilities.
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Monk Member (Idle past 3944 days) Posts: 782 From: Kansas, USA Joined: |
crashfrog writes: My guess is that we couldn't get much smaller than the little rugrat over there in your avatar. hehehe maybe so, but of course the proportions of a rugrat are quite different from that of an adult (human that is). Baby heads are large in comparison to their body size as easily seen in my avatar. (BTW, I almost cropped just the head for use as an avatar when I joined this forum, but I couldn't decide on a suitable background) But these 'hobbits' seem to have fully adult proportions. So is there a practical limit to the reduction in the size of a species?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
So is there a practical limit to the reduction in the size of a species? I'd say the juvenile cranium represents the smallest a functional human brain can be, so you'd be limited to the body that would be proportional to a brain of that size. But then again, maybe I'm wrong. I'm having a hard time really visualizing the exact size and proportion of Homo floresiensis. This message has been edited by crashfrog, 04-05-2005 08:38 PM
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: I am not saying that this is strong evidence, but it does tend to tip the scales towards competition in my book. Of course, much more evidence is needed before any conclusions can be drawn.
quote: It is never too early to speculate, but it can be too early to draw reliable conclusions.
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Godfearingatheist Inactive Member |
Image > From:LONDON ( This is a common Image) --http://www.nhm.ac.uk/.../items/2004/Oct/images/braincast.gif (?) :
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Freeloader Inactive Member |
http://ufo.whipnet.org/creation/hobbit.race/hobbit.200.html
http://ufo.whipnet.org/...f/Flores.Hobbit/Flores.hobbit.html As a side note, I am looking for updated information on this new Game that looks pretty interesting; cool flash website too! thanks ***< !--UB Destroy All Humans. -->< !--UB Destroy All Humans. -->Destroy All Humans. < !--UE-->
< !--UB I found that link here --> < !--UB I found that link here --> I found that link here < !--UE-->
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Darwin's Terrier Inactive Member |
Hi folks, long time no see...
Thought you'd like to know that, according to a colleague over at the Internet Infidels, Jacob may be responsible for seriously knackering these fossils. Bizarre... and mindblowingly maddening if true. See:Oops! We ran into some problems. | Internet Infidels Discussion Board for all the info I know so far. Cheers, DT
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
thanks DT, that is disturbing if true.
welcome back.
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Darwin's Terrier Inactive Member |
We've now got a fairly full discussion of it at the above link, so not much point in me re-typing the info it here. Take a look at the state of the pelvis -- completely smashed!
(I was being a bit thick though: this actually came out back in March.) DT
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
It's time for some counter-opinion here...
I contacted my friends at UGM about this matter earlier. They told me that Prof Teuku Jacob and his team are enraged by these charges. One of Prof Teuku Jacob's colleagues say that the bones were intact when it was picked up by people from Arkenas (RP Soejono's institution in Jakarta). She also said that the damage might have been caused by the return trip to Jakarta--she claims the Arkenas people did not store them properly.
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