... contradicts the claim the claim that Sodomites were preying on passers by, and thus violated hospitality. Please stick to your own argument, or at least indicate which variant of your rapidly changing story you want addressed.
how? abram clobbers their enemies on account of lot. so they's gonna be nice to lot for a while
... ALSO contradicts the claim that the Sodomites are preying on passers by, becuase the angels walk up unmolested. Once again you keep citing stuff that is CONTRARY to your own argument.
do you make this stuff up? where'd you get "passers by" from, exactly? hmm? visitors. foriegners. people from out of town. who, like, actually come into their city. not just walk by.
... despite the fact that there is no reason whatsoever to think that they HAVE any such obligation towards Lot.
no, that's not what i said at all. their CRIME is that they have no such obligation to respect lot's duty. that's accusation the text is making. lot has the duty, and i think you will agree to that. they attempt to get in his way.
there is absolutely no basis for this claim whatsoever; it is wholly out of place in the setting. Can you provide any evidence at all which supports this interpretation?
and yet 600 years later (after genesis's final redaction), josephus includes that in his list of sins. tell me, at what point do teh anachronism and actual data conflict? cause that jesus line drives it back another 100 years. and ezekiel drive it back even further. and considering that the talmud is the mishna of the oral law, it's traditions are actually MUCH older than the 200 ad text.
so tell me, at what point will you just have to give up and accept that all the other writing of period simply disagrees with your incorrect assesment of the people?
No, nonsense. What evidence do you have for this claim? Travellers had NO right to expect protection from anyone; they were on their own. And they were doing exactly what travellers DO have the right to do, which is take up residence in the city square. If the Sodomites were being bad to travellars, why did they let them in the city gate in the first place?
hi. reading comprehension time again.
genesis 19:1. LOT MEETS THEM. he's watching the city gate, for some reason. he gets to them before anyone else. in fact, a reasonable reading would be that he meets to prevent such a conflict.
Once again this makes no sense.
only because you apparently can't read.
Then you have completely missed the point. Where are the external examples of similar myths? Eh? I'm still waiting. But you cannot produce any becuase there are not any.
what happened to city in baucis?
look, the point is not even that. you just don't seem to get this. sure, the fact it's collective is unusual. it's not that that has in common with other myths (although some do have similar aspects). it's the setup. it's setup like a hospitality myth.
knock knock.
who's there?
...to get to the other side.
doesn't matter if the punch line is another kind of joke, it's still a knock knock joke. and if i told you that joke, and said "knock knock" you'd say "who's there?" jokes and myths actually have a lot in common: mnemonic devices.
now, you asked for a list of myths having similar traits. i listed myths with similar setups. you asked for extra biblical literature. i gave you literature that's damned near contemporary that reads it my way. you're arguing against 2000 years of jewish opinion, and insisting that they didn't interpret it that way.
I don't consider analysis of Jewish Religion by Jews, oir christian religion by christians, to be free of self-serving bias. Thats exactly whay I am looking for material unrelated to Sodom specifically to test the validity of your claims.
no. that's completely invalid. we're looking at interpretation BY THE PEOPLE WHO WROTE IT. understand? i don't care if you think their interpretation is right or wrong. i don't care if it IS right or wrong. you're insisting that such an idea did not exist when people wrote the story. and i'm proving that it certainly did within the same time frame you were off by: 600 years.
You're an arrogant fucker for someone who's claims have been consistently dismantled.
wanna take a poll?
you've been proven wrong on the existance of an identical myth, and you refuse to accept it.
you've been proven wrong on the fact that hospitality or violations of host-guest agreements lead to destruction of whole groups in other literature, and you refuse to accept it.
you've been proven wrong on the existance of similar myths, considering that gen 19 is setup like a hospitality myth, and you refuse to accept it.
you've been proven wrong on the basis that is the mainstream academic opinion, and has been for the last 2000 years, as indicated in the talmud, midrashim, and even the secular work of josephus. and you refuse to accept it.
and more over, you proved that you have absolutely NO knowlegde of what you're talking about by continually misrepresenting the timeframe of the story's authorship (and therefor it's societal context that you keep harping on about). you've also proven you don't even know what what the torah is, let alone that the talmud, midrashim, and josephus's antiquities are not in the bible. in fact, josephus isn't even a religious work. simply put, you're completely ignorant of the topic.
now, i'm sorry i called you a name. but you honestly must have been living in a cave for your entire life to not know what the torah is. i'm not arrogant, i just know what i'm talking about. and you do not.
I can and will take the same stance regarding Jewish redactions of the Torah or Talmud as I take with christians.
be my guest, unless that stance is "they don't exist." the talmud is CLEARLY literary interpretation of the torah. it's basically a record of people sitting around talking about it, like we are here. sometimes, it's even as heated. quoting the talmud is not the ultimate authority of anything, it's one rabbi's opinions, followed by another. and they almost never agree. and the midrashim are about the same. so take any attitude you want about it, it's the issue.
it does however show that that reading of the story is atleast 1800 years old, and probably much older. and that's all i had to show.
There is no evidence for the story of Sodom being "about hospitality" in any degree.
please.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 03-24-2005 07:35 AM
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