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Author Topic:   Why were there martyrs and conflict?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 10 (182320)
02-01-2005 12:12 PM


One of the key points to Pax Romana was that any and all religions were tolerated. Rome at the time was polytheistic so one more GOD or less really didn't matter.
A second thing we often tend to forget is that communications were really cosmopolitan at that time. It really was possible for an individual to post a letter to some person or community with a high expectation that it would actually get there. This was a quantum leap from the situation not all that much earlier when the concept of communication would have been limited to heads of state. We have records of communications from around 2000 BCE on, but by the time of Christ, we are seeing general personal communications, letters, epistles between just plain folk and not just from the head of a city-state to the Pharoah.
By the time of Christ we find there were established Jewish communities throughout the middle east at a minimum. They were in Ethiopia, Egypt, Syria, Greece and Italy for sure and likely in Northern Europe and India as well. And with those communities came a well organized bureaucracy, a power structure.
We have some hints of what was going on in the tales of Saul and Stephen. We also have hints in the fact that Rome did single out Christians and Jews for extraordinary punishments.
So what evidence do we have for what was going on at that time? What led to the purging of so many Gospels, Epistles and Books from the Christian Canon? Why are so many of the original two groups of Apostles virtually absent from the records of the formative period of Christianity? What led to the martyrdom of so many of the Christian leaders we do have information about?

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AdminAsgara
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Message 2 of 10 (182395)
02-01-2005 5:43 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 3 of 10 (182454)
02-01-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
02-01-2005 12:12 PM


From the Hip
In a word: Sedition.
Jesus and his disciples attracted the wrong kind of attention. Their speeches were anti-establishment and contained threats of violence against all who did not go along with their plan for national renewal.
They were rebels, plain and simple. They looked and sounded like every other group of messianic wannabe's who had come and gone before them.
They clearly did not agree with Paul's advice regarding the divine nature of Roman government.
quote:
"Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there."
"There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power." Romans 13:1 LB
They fought the law and the law won.
db

"I am the LORD, ... besides me there is no God;" Isaiah 45:5 RSV

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Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 4 of 10 (190442)
03-07-2005 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
02-01-2005 12:12 PM


Jar writes:
We have some hints of what was going on in the tales of Saul and Stephen. We also have hints in the fact that Rome did single out Christians and Jews for extraordinary punishments.
What are the extra-Christian sources that Rome singled out Christians and Jews for extraordinary punishments?

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 5 of 10 (190447)
03-07-2005 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Trae
03-07-2005 8:16 AM


Tacatulis fragement 2 , antiquities by Joseph Flavious and the letters of Philo Judeas of Alexandrea.
Tactalus was concerned about rebellion of a jewish cult, and thought that by 'destroying the root' (i.e. the temple), the 'vine' would wither.
Josesph Flavious and Philo talked about the thousands of Jewish people that were cruxified during Pilates term as govenor.
The Jews got in a great deal of trouble with Rome at one point because they refused to worship a man as a god. Funny thing, the Jews got in a great deal of trouble with Christians at one point because they refused to worship a man as a god. Consistant on that point.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 10 (190457)
03-07-2005 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
02-01-2005 12:12 PM


No Compromise led to Conflicts
Jar writes:
So what evidence do we have for what was going on at that time? What led to the purging of so many Gospels, Epistles and Books from the Christian Canon? Why are so many of the original two groups of Apostles virtually absent from the records of the formative period of Christianity? What led to the martyrdom of so many of the Christian leaders we do have information about?
Lots of the answers to this question will never be known for sure.
  • Some believe, like dr.bill, that it is all a human nature thing....rebels who did not go with the flow. Others such as myself believe that this group of believers actually had an almost supernatural impartation which put them at odds with the unenlightened majority of humanity.
  • Why purge books from the canon? Some believe that it was all a result of human tendency to politicise the church and manipulate and control humanity. That it was a power struggle between competing religious ideologies. Others, such as myself, believe that one side was right(via divine impartation) and the other sides were knowingly yet largely unknowingly tools of the dark side...attempting to indoctorinate the Truth of the character of Jesus Christ expressed in the Gospels by diluting it with Gnostic heresies.
  • As for those Apostles, I always thought that they went out into the world to spread the Truth. Martyrdom is the result of refusing to be politically correct. They were zealots but they were not good politicians.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by jar, posted 02-01-2005 12:12 PM jar has replied

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 7 of 10 (190460)
    03-07-2005 11:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
    03-07-2005 11:12 AM


    Re: No Compromise led to Conflicts
    So how about the vast majority of Jesus immediate group of followers? Why was Mary purged, both her writings and her history? Why don't we even know the names of the second group of 25 Apostles? Why is there no history of what the second wave did?

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 8 of 10 (190461)
    03-07-2005 11:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 7 by jar
    03-07-2005 11:30 AM


    Re: No Compromise led to Conflicts
    Jar writes:
    So how about the vast majority of Jesus immediate group of followers? Why was Mary purged, both her writings and her history? Why don't we even know the names of the second group of 25 Apostles? Why is there no history of what the second wave did?
    Good point.
    Mary was a woman, and the culture suppressed woman.
    As for the rest, going with my theory of supernatural impartation, it would appear that either the vast majority of these followers compromised their initial zealousness in order to survive and blend in, or they kept quiet about their inner faith, spreading it quietly to people around them.
    This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-07-2005 09:35 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by jar, posted 03-07-2005 11:30 AM jar has replied

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 9 of 10 (190464)
    03-07-2005 11:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
    03-07-2005 11:34 AM


    Re: No Compromise led to Conflicts
    But do you mean all of them failed in the same manner? Remember, each and everyone of them were imparted by the Holy Ghost. These were post-Pentacost Apostles.
    As to Mary, the few records we do have seem to show that she had a large following and at the general time, religions with a female head were not uncommon at all.
    So what is the internal history of the formative period of the Christian Church?

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 10 of 10 (190467)
    03-07-2005 11:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 9 by jar
    03-07-2005 11:48 AM


    Re: No Compromise led to Conflicts
    But do you mean all of them failed in the same manner?
    No, I am not suggesting that ALL of them failed. Some kept quiet, while some actually compromised their zeal and fervor.
    Remember, each and everyone of them were imparted by the Holy Ghost.
    As many Christians are also, today. Yet how few walk the walk!
    As for Mary, I would imagine that she knew not to make waves...that more could be accomplished in quiet communion with likeminded people.
    So what is the internal history of the formative period of the Christian Church?
    Alas, much of that information was purged and suppressed. Who was afraid of exposing whom? Could it beeeee?
    This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-07-2005 09:58 AM

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