Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,907 Year: 4,164/9,624 Month: 1,035/974 Week: 362/286 Day: 5/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Should we have bunches of neutral body parts?
custard
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 35 (188274)
02-24-2005 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Electron
02-24-2005 7:14 AM


electron writes:
If you are considering 'body parts' to mean large collections of cells, then Jacen has already pointed out that there can be no such thing as a 'neutral' body part. Such parts would still impose a finite cost to the organsim without any benefit in return, and would therefore be weeded out by natural selection.
This would seem to be a very satisfactory answer to your inital question.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the human appendix and coccyx fall into the category of 'large collections of cells' which are essentially neutral and of no benefit to the organism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Electron, posted 02-24-2005 7:14 AM Electron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Electron, posted 02-25-2005 5:17 AM custard has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 35 (188387)
02-25-2005 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Electron
02-25-2005 5:17 AM


electro writes:
If you find the appendix and coccyx a puzzle it is because you are unable to visualise the magnitude of the time-scales involved.
Is that why? I thought it was because I was answering this statement of yours:
electro writes:
If you are considering 'body parts' to mean large collections of cells, then Jacen has already pointed out that there can be no such thing as a 'neutral' body part. Such parts would still impose a finite cost to the organsim without any benefit in return, and would therefore be weeded out by natural selection.
So are you claiming that any 'neutral' body parts I find in organisms are simply garbage collection?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Electron, posted 02-25-2005 5:17 AM Electron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Electron, posted 02-25-2005 6:12 AM custard has replied
 Message 30 by Brad McFall, posted 02-25-2005 12:40 PM custard has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 35 (188403)
02-25-2005 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Electron
02-25-2005 6:12 AM


electro writes:
Once again I draw your attention to timescales. The time taken for natural selection to effect such changes might be beyond your comprehension. That would account for why you're suprised to find such depreciated items still present(albeit in reduced form) and I'm not.
Actually what I'm surprised by is your condescension. I am well aware of the timescales. I was providing an example to see how you would respond, but I wasn't aware your responses would center on your misperception of my temporal cognitive abilities.
Standing this on its head, if "garbage collection" was not performed then over such extended periods the so-called "neutral body parts" would outnumber the active ones.
You sort of dodged my question: are you claiming that ANY neutral body part is simply a result of garbage collection? Because now it sounds as though you allow for the possibility of neutral body parts in organisms, but that they will be outnumbered by 'active' ones - which is NOT what you said in your earlier post; nor was it what HC said: "neutral body parts don't exist b/c natural selection gets rid of them" (paraphrase).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Electron, posted 02-25-2005 6:12 AM Electron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Electron, posted 02-25-2005 7:06 AM custard has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 35 (188461)
02-25-2005 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Electron
02-25-2005 7:06 AM


electron writes:
If you still fail to understand why species are not overburdened with neutral bodyparts, then it is probably because you fail to see the way in which they might be phased-out over time.
Dude, we are obviously miscommunicating here because I don't even know what you are arguing at this point.
Let's start over. You posted this:
If you are considering 'body parts' to mean large collections of cells, then Jacen has already pointed out that there can be no such thing as a 'neutral' body part. Such parts would still impose a finite cost to the organsim without any benefit in return, and would therefore be weeded out by natural selection.
I proffered the coccyx and appendix as examles of neutral body parts, you pointed out that these are vestigial in nature and not some benign mutation.
I AGREE! Let's move on.
I ask you again, do you still stand by this statement you made (above): "there can be no such thing as a 'neutral' body part?"
If you do, then I shouldn't be able to find any organism that has some benign mutation (neutral body part) that doesn't currently or didn't PREVIOUSLY benefit the organism, correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Electron, posted 02-25-2005 7:06 AM Electron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Electron, posted 02-25-2005 10:25 AM custard has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 35 (188473)
02-25-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Electron
02-25-2005 10:25 AM


electro writes:
Well after reviewing the disproportionate amount of effort required to gain your agreement above, I hesitate to continue...
Now you can tell me all about your example of a benign mutation that was never of any benefit to the host.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to be a total ass when I'm trying to have a simple discussion with you, but I think I'll do myself a good turn and NOT continue to subject myself to your posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Electron, posted 02-25-2005 10:25 AM Electron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Electron, posted 02-25-2005 10:59 AM custard has not replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 35 (188628)
02-26-2005 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Brad McFall
02-25-2005 12:40 PM


brad writes:
I am somewhat concerned that we might be playing a bit too loosely with meaning of words, "null", "neutral", and "zero". I would have simply thought that there are NO body parts that have no "cost".
Agreed. All body parts have some cost. The term 'neutral body part' seems to be interpreted differently by each poster (myself included).
Hector's query of gman:
Lots of neutral body parts would not be neutral at all. It would be disadvantagious to have lots of neutral body parts, which natural selection would prevent from happening.
To respond to this adequately we need to be sure of what definition of 'neutral body part' gman intends.
I take it to mean a non-vestigial appendage, growth, organ, blastocyst, etc. that is the result of random mutation that provides NO competitive advantage or disadvantage.
Ergo an Emu's wings would not be considered neutral, but perhaps something like the lack of wisdom teeth in homo sapiens is.
It's possible gman is confusing vestigial 'body parts' (pelvis in snakes, coccyx in humans, etc.) with a distinct, benign mutation that has conveys no competitive advantage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Brad McFall, posted 02-25-2005 12:40 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Brad McFall, posted 02-26-2005 8:06 AM custard has not replied
 Message 35 by Electron, posted 02-26-2005 9:39 AM custard has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024