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Author | Topic: Embarrassed Creationist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Vercingetorix  Inactive Member |
--sorry im very new and wasn't sure where to post this--
WOW! O.O i have been here for a few hours reading, looking, and thinking about posting (ok i made one post). I would call myself christian, well Roman Catholic actually, and I think of myself as a creationist. After reading posts on here from others who say they are creationists, I am embarrassed to call myself one, geez! I realize people make errors (I'm really good at this, as you can probably see from my grammar), and the scientists have thier own language, but come on! The creationists make some generalized opinions and think they are stating facts that even I can see are wrong. This will be a learning expierience for me and that is why I am here. I hope to say something but for now I will sound like a evolutionist so I'm just going to keep reading. Some of this stuff is really funny. After talking smack I will now open myself up for it.I am a creationist because of a few simple reasons/personal opinions on the issue. 1. I do not think that either side of the issue has definate 100% proof, and reguardless on what side of the fence you are on requires some ever so small amount of faith in your side of the arguement. even if it is just faith that science will find the answer and is on the right path. If I personally am going to pick a side and use faith, my faith goes to God a creationism. I could be wrong (it happens multiple times daily), and then I would have to switch sides. 2. The other probable reason for me is that I am not a positivist. Positivism is not the only philosophy out there when it comes to reasearch, and I believe Positivism is esentially flawed (because it relies on observation and objectivity). other than that evolution sounds great.
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AdminJar Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Rand Al'Thor Inactive Member |
Vercingetorix writes:
This is true, but it is also true of ANY scientific theory. It is not the realm of Science to "prove" anything. That is reserved for Mathematics. All that science can do is support a theory with enough evidence so that it reaches the point where it can be accepted as fact. The Theory of Evolution is one of those. Also it is important to realize that there is no "Theory of Creationism" and even if the TOE (Theory of Evolution) is shown to be flawed, it doesn't confirm Creationism.
1. I do not think that either side of the issue has definate 100% proof, and reguardless on what side of the fence you are on requires some ever so small amount of faith in your side of the arguement. Vercingetorix writes:
One of the things that people generally fail to understand is that the TOE says NOTHING about the existence/non-existence of god(s). There are a great number of people that are able to accept the TOE and still worship their god without any problem. This isn't a "either/or" situation. If I personally am going to pick a side and use faith, my faith goes to God a creationism. This message has been edited by Rand Al'Thor, 02-25-2005 01:12 AM
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1718 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
If I personally am going to pick a side and use faith, my faith goes to God a creationism. Here's a radical idea: Side with both your faith and the evidence, and go with God and evolution. Why, after all, are they incompatible?
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 119 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
the frog writes:
While I can understand why atheists would have trouble understanding why a religious person might feel uncomfortable with the theory of evolution, I think this question has been answered many many many many times by creos on this board. Here's a radical idea: Side with both your faith and the evidence, and go with God and evolution. Why, after all, are they incompatible?
The reason some people reject evolution is because it says nothing about god, and that is exactly the problem. I think evolution would have received more praises if it has a footnote that says "Mutation, which is the backbone of the theory, is caused by the Almighty Christian God and no other."
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custard Inactive Member |
Hector reborn writes: I think evolution would have received more praises if it has a footnote that says "Mutation, which is the backbone of the theory, is caused by the Almighty Christian God and no other." Doesn't the Fine Tuning argument do just that? I'm surprised I haven't seen this argument presented more frequently. It certainly would seem to be harder to refute than the typical creation argument.
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4245 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Hi,VC, at least you are willing to look at all sides. That`s a pretty good start.
Hi, Hector, why should atheists have trouble understanding a religious person being uncomfortable withe the TOE? After all, that`s where many atheists started, deep in the heart of religion.
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 119 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
custard writes:
Just how many typical creos do you know that actually know what "mutation" is?
I'm surprised I haven't seen this argument presented more frequently. It certainly would seem to be harder to refute than the typical creation argument.
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custard Inactive Member |
Just how many typical creos do you know that actually know what "mutation" is? Touche.
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 119 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Nighttrain writes:
If you haven't noticed, I've been trying to support creationism in some of my posts. The reason is because I've been trying very very hard to think like myself a few years back (christian fundy). I must admit that the result is very surprising. Hi, Hector, why should atheists have trouble understanding a religious person being uncomfortable withe the TOE? After all, that`s where many atheists started, deep in the heart of religion.
Rule #1: There is a god.Rule #2: God is actively influencing the world. I ask you this. Are the atheists, who started out on the religious side, really putting these 2 rules into consideration when dealing with a fundy? Fundies often have trouble understanding why we demand evidence for everything, and I think atheists often have trouble understanding why fundies have "faith".
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custard Inactive Member |
Fundies often have trouble understanding why we demand evidence for everything, and I think atheists often have trouble understanding why fundies have "faith". Nice observation. I know that blind faith is certainly my stumbling block, but I think there are better, certainly less falsifiable, arguments for creationists that they could be using: fine tuning for one. The ID argument is slightly more palatable if it was argued from the 'God the Clockmaker' angle, and human evolution was the inevitable result of initial design and the creation of the right conditions.
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 119 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
custard writes:
Here is something to think about. If we take the ID path, how far do we go back before we say "ok, this is where it all began"? The ID argument is slightly more palatable if it was argued from the 'God the Clockmaker' angle, and human evolution was the inevitable result of initial design and the creation of the right conditions.
The problem with ID is you can never know when the natural world ends and the realm of the supernatural begins. Before ToE, creation myths were all that people had. So, according to ID back then, they would have drawn the line that seperates history and prehistory. After ToE, ID would draw the line somewhere between abiogenesis and the first events of evolution. What if tomorrow we find out that abiogenesis is a natural process? Do we keep pushing back the line? If so, why even bother?
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custard Inactive Member |
What if tomorrow we find out that abiogenesis is a natural process? Do we keep pushing back the line? If so, why even bother? I don't see how that invalidates the argument that god is still the source for design of existence as we know it; especially if conditions sympathetic to (wrong word, but tired sorry) abiogenesis and life as we know it are inherent in the design. The problem I see over and over again is that most creationists set the bar to far forward because they get caught up in literalism. Why set a bar at all. Who knows, maybe abiogenesis not only occurs, but it occurs much more frequently than we think BECAUSE that is the fundamental nature of reality as created by god.
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nator Member (Idle past 2421 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But no scientific theory has a footnote like that, so why would you expect just this one to and not all the others? I mean, would the Germ Theory of Disease or the Theory of a Helocentric Solar System be more be more palatable to Creationists if we had footnotes like "Bacteria reproducing inside a body which release toxins to cause illness is caused by the Almighty Christian God and no other.", or "The physical laws which deal with planetary orbits and mass are caused by the Almighty Christian god and no other."? Or, do they accept these because they would look like idiots if they didn't? Also, in what way does concluding that God is the cause of something increase our understanding of a phenomena? Lastly, if you are a Roman Catholic, are you not aware that the Pope declared it OK to accept Biology these days? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-25-2005 08:27 AM
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Vercingetorix  Inactive Member |
haven't figured out how to quote yet so bear with me.
SCRAFINATOR SAID "Lastly, if you are a Roman Catholic, are you not aware that the Pope declared it OK to accept Biology these days?" yeah, and after reading a lot of posts it seems like Catholic Schools teach biology better than public ones. RAND AL'THOR SAID "It is not the realm of Science to "prove" anything.CRASHFROG SAID "Side with both your faith and the evidence, and go with God and evolution. Why, after all, are they incompatible? " RESURRECTED HECTOR SAID "Fundies often have trouble understanding why we demand evidence for everything," I think that Science and the scietific method are both part of the Positivist Philosophy, and there fore trying to PROVE!C-Frog and R-Hector both talk about EVIDENCE. evidence leads to proof and there fore DOES PROVE, Science Proves. C-Frog: I don't think that God and Evolution are incompatable (in fact, most catholics i know think that God created the world through evolution). it is unacceptable for me because of faith. if something can be proven no faith is needed, if you ever need faith in science, because it is not proving anything it is junk science (like phrenology). if you can't prove it, by repeatable observation it shouldn't be science. look i think that creationism is the least likely scenario, but if i am true to my scientific roots, TOE is more likely, but until proven, still wrong. FAITH, has no place in SCIENCE!
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