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Author Topic:   Free will, perfection and limits on god
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 31 of 248 (187531)
02-22-2005 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
02-22-2005 2:49 PM


Re: Looking for a second step.
jar
What exactly do you mean?
I would imagine that a Perfect GOD whould not leave us records that were designed to mislead us, to fool us.
We should not find examples of things that really are not as they seem.
If we make the assumption of god existing and not misleading us we should also assume that our investigation will include god as part of your other sentence here.
If what I suspect is true, we should be able to look at the universe and find that what we discover is actually what is there
In other words god also must be a part of the discovery of what is actually there in order to satisfy the original premise that god should not fool us.Without this qualification we can make no discernment between a universe with god and one without can we? This would be also in line with the honesty that we have made a requisite of a perect god.
If I have made an error in my asessment please help to clarify my understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 02-22-2005 2:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 02-22-2005 3:54 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-22-2005 3:57 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 89 by QBert14000, posted 04-19-2005 6:21 PM sidelined has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 248 (187537)
02-22-2005 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by sidelined
02-22-2005 3:09 PM


Re: Looking for a second step.
I still don't understand what it is you are saying. Are you saying that we should be able to test GOD as we test the Universe? If so, I'd say no, not posible.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by sidelined, posted 02-22-2005 3:09 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by sidelined, posted 02-22-2005 11:05 PM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 248 (187538)
02-22-2005 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by sidelined
02-22-2005 3:09 PM


Re: Looking for a second step.
In other words god also must be a part of the discovery of what is actually there in order to satisfy the original premise that god should not fool us.
If god proved to everyone that he existed then everyone would believe in him. This would make the belief in god worth less. Its like what I said earlier with love, if everyone loved god by default then that love would lose quality. Beilieving in god without proof (faith) is worth more to god than discovering him and then believing.
Also, leaving us record that were designed to mislead us and finding examples of things that really are not as they seem is a lot different than leaving out information that proves his existance. The first two are lying, the third is not.
Without this qualification we can make no discernment between a universe with god and one without can we?
no, we can't and prolly never will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by sidelined, posted 02-22-2005 3:09 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by sidelined, posted 02-22-2005 11:15 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 34 of 248 (187621)
02-22-2005 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
02-22-2005 3:54 PM


Re: Looking for a second step.
jar
Well let us see if we can resolve this. We agreed to this point.
Since the topic title contains GOD can we, for the sake of this thread assume that GOD does exist?
The assumption is made.Now we further the arguement thus.
First, I am assuming here that we are talking about GOD and that as we define attributes we will then test as well as we can those attributes against some agreed upon standard
The next premise is the crux of the issue. I can give no more since this is proceeding along lines that assume much without prior evidence.Please believe me that I wish to properly allow your arguements but give me a bone here people.You made the statement
I would imagine that a Perfect GOD whould not leave us records that were designed to mislead us, to fool us.
Now,given that god exists and that god will not mislead, I made the presumption{perhaps incorrectly}, that because you also made this statement,
If what I suspect is true, we should be able to look at the universe and find that what we discover is actually what is there. We should not find examples of things that really are not as they seem.
then god should be honest and allow us to "discover what is actually there."
Now since I am at a disadvantage here as to how to properly construct my appeals so that you will not feel that I am either moving goalposts or placing insurmountable obstructions for you to hurdle,before I engage your main points,then I humbly ask that you clear up this issue.
Is god honest when discovery of god is withheld?
If we allow that god is free from discovery then let us make this a premise from the get go as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 02-22-2005 3:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 02-22-2005 11:18 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 35 of 248 (187626)
02-22-2005 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
02-22-2005 3:57 PM


Re: Looking for a second step.
Catholic Scientist
If god proved to everyone that he existed then everyone would believe in him.
I do not see as this is true. If god was as obvious as gravity then belief would not be a requirment. Denial of gravity is quickly dispelled by simple experiment.Gravity applies whether you believe in it or not in ways that cannot be sidestepped with disbelief.
This would make the belief in god worth less.
It certainly would.In place of belief would be testability that anyone could accomplish and whos evidence would be available to all.
Beilieving in god without proof (faith) is worth more to god than discovering him and then believing
Why would this be so? Why would an honest god need to test love? Is god incapable of determining truth of affection for him? I am sorry but this is not something I find particularly convincing.
Also, leaving us record that were designed to mislead us and finding examples of things that really are not as they seem is a lot different than leaving out information that proves his existance.
Really? Give us an example.
This message has been edited by sidelined, 22 February 2005 22:05 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-22-2005 3:57 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by QBert14000, posted 04-19-2005 6:27 PM sidelined has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 248 (187627)
02-22-2005 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by sidelined
02-22-2005 11:05 PM


Re: Looking for a second step.
Is god honest when discovery of god is withheld?
I'm not sure withheld is the best description. GOD is not part of the Universe and so I'm not sure how we could go about discovery. We can possibly infer his existence. And we can possible determine certain things that would certainly falsify the existence of a GOD like I envision.
Now since I am at a disadvantage here as to how to properly construct my appeals so that you will not feel that I am either moving goalposts or placing insurmountable obstructions for you to hurdle,before I engage your main points,then I humbly ask that you clear up this issue.
I'm not too worried. TTBOMK you and I have always been able to at the least, determine our individual positions. I don't expect to ever to be able to prove the existence of GOD. What I hope that we can do is develop a reasonable mutual understanding of how what we see in terms of humans and human behavior is possibly consistent with such a GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by sidelined, posted 02-22-2005 11:05 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by sidelined, posted 02-23-2005 12:03 AM jar has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 37 of 248 (187641)
02-23-2005 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
02-22-2005 11:18 PM


Re: Looking for a second step.
jar
We can possibly infer his existence. And we can possible determine certain things that would certainly falsify the existence of a GOD like I envision.
. What I hope that we can do is develop a reasonable mutual understanding of how what we see in terms of humans and human behavior is possibly consistent with such a GOD.
Ok. Let us see where this leads.Onward through the fog!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 02-22-2005 11:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 02-23-2005 9:03 PM sidelined has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 248 (187923)
02-23-2005 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by sidelined
02-23-2005 12:03 AM


Onward through the fog!
Love that. It's always so difficult when we come from such diametrically opposing viewpoints. We really do find ourselves fog bound when trying to reach common ground. Perhaps what is needed in such situations is not the classic fog horn but rather the soft voices that fog or snow seem to transmit so well.
Please remember I readily agree that it will be impossible or at least extremely unlikely that we will see a difference between a world that comes about through totally normal processes and one created by the GOD I envision.
So let's start with me laying out a few of my assumptions.
I do believe that this Universe was created by an Honest GOD. If that is true, then I can assume that what we see is true. For example, the old earth really is old, the stars really are a long way away. If we found out that rocks really weren't old, that the stars really weren't a long way away, that fossils were all created at one moment, it would falsify my concept of an honest GOD.
This message has been edited by jar, 02-23-2005 20:05 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by sidelined, posted 02-23-2005 12:03 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by sidelined, posted 02-23-2005 10:38 PM jar has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 39 of 248 (187950)
02-23-2005 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
02-23-2005 9:03 PM


Re: Onward through the fog!
Jar
Ok God is an honest fellow and the universe is the way we discover it.Carry on.
This message has been edited by sidelined, 23 February 2005 20:39 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 02-23-2005 9:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 02-23-2005 10:43 PM sidelined has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 248 (187952)
02-23-2005 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by sidelined
02-23-2005 10:38 PM


Deeper into the bank.
Would it be reasonable to consider that another testable attribute might be that GOD is logical?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by sidelined, posted 02-23-2005 10:38 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by sidelined, posted 02-24-2005 8:28 AM jar has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 41 of 248 (188060)
02-24-2005 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
02-23-2005 10:43 PM


Re: Deeper into the bank.
jar
We will assume this for the moment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 02-23-2005 10:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 02-24-2005 11:09 AM sidelined has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 248 (188117)
02-24-2005 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by sidelined
02-24-2005 8:28 AM


Still fog bound and wandering.
Okay,
If as I believe GOD created this Universe, then as we discover the rules governing the Universe we should find those rules to be logical. The logic may well be difficult to understand but once understood, there must be a reasonablness to the rule that stands up to logical examination. If we find rules that simply make no sense, that do not stand up to logical analysis then, if we really do understand the rule, it would falsify the existence of GOD.
Am I making any sense at all?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by sidelined, posted 02-24-2005 8:28 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by sidelined, posted 02-24-2005 5:29 PM jar has replied

  
Vercingetorix 
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 248 (188129)
02-24-2005 11:37 AM


he did
the angels are perfect beings with free will (if you accept free will).
i do not think there is free will. i am more of a fan of pre-destiny. God is omnipitent (sp?). this IMHO kills free will

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by QBert14000, posted 04-19-2005 6:34 PM Vercingetorix has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 44 of 248 (188215)
02-24-2005 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
02-24-2005 11:09 AM


Re: Still fog bound and wandering.
jar
I am still with you on this.Rules that we discover must contain within them a logical progression and not contradict the world we observe in our investigations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 02-24-2005 11:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 02-24-2005 5:37 PM sidelined has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 248 (188219)
02-24-2005 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by sidelined
02-24-2005 5:29 PM


Out of the fog but into the mineshaft.
Okay. So far so good.
The third big thing that would be an attribute of a Perfect GOD IMHO would be consistency. If we found that the evidence we saw was not consistent, that it was arbitrary and changed constantly, then I would say that would definitely falsify the concept.
I now we're still wandering in the dark but hopefully still close enough so that we can talk.
can you hear me?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by sidelined, posted 02-24-2005 5:29 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by sidelined, posted 02-24-2005 5:54 PM jar has replied

  
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