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Author Topic:   If Genesis is Metaphorical, what's the metaphor?
tardygm2 
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 168 (187585)
02-22-2005 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
02-22-2005 3:36 PM


i feel sorry for you.

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tardygm2 
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 168 (187586)
02-22-2005 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Chiroptera
02-22-2005 3:47 PM


Re: If Genesis is Metaphorical, what's the metaphor?
your all wrong! god forgive them

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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6726 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 33 of 168 (187587)
02-22-2005 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 6:56 PM


Re: Yes
I agree that isn't how christianity works. That's it's main problem and why I left it when I gained knowledge. That of course harkens back to genesis also.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Jor-el, posted 02-22-2005 6:56 PM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
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tardygm2 
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 168 (187588)
02-22-2005 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
02-22-2005 4:03 PM


Re: If Genesis is Metaphorical, what's the metaphor?
ok poor

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Jor-el
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 168 (187590)
02-22-2005 7:43 PM


jar,
Taking into account that these are statements made by the Rev. Bennett J. Sims, retired Bishop of Atlanta, who, after just one little search on the web turned out to be a progressive liberal christian, who will not defend the bible and the God he serves.
Who advocates gay marriage, when it is expressly forbidden in the bible http://www.integrityva.org/hu_theology.htm. Who is also a political activist, doesn't say much for the reliability of this particular source.
Still, he states that "Textual research shows that these two accounts are from two distinct eras, the first later in history, the second earlier."
Where in fact can I find this textual research?
P.S This is the kind of person who professes that all things are relative and thus equal. That is not, as we know, the standing of a christian. At best he is a philosopher who wears a white collar.
This message has been edited by Jor-el, 23 February 2005 00:58 AM

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Replies to this message:
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Jor-el
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 168 (187595)
02-22-2005 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by mikehager
02-22-2005 7:36 PM


Re: Yes
Since that is the case, the most that you can get from the bible is a good story. The words will only be words and they can never breathe life and faith.
I respect that, it takes courage, which I honestly admit I will never have, even though I am flawed and many times a poor example as a christian.
But the faith is there and that makes it worthwhile. I can't and will never want to turn my back on that.

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3716 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 37 of 168 (187596)
02-22-2005 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 7:43 PM


Documentary Hypothesis
Research Documentary Hypothesis
Also check out a book by Richard Elliott Friedman called "Who Wrote the Bible?
Documentary Hypothesis discusses the various theorys on the authors of the Torah.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 168 (187597)
02-22-2005 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 7:43 PM


Taking into account that these are statements made by the Rev. Bennett J. Sims, retired Bishop of Atlanta, who, after just one little search on the web turned out to be a progressive liberal christian, who will not defend the bible and the God he serves.
Who advocates gay marriage, when it is expressly forbidden in the bible http://www.integrityva.org/hu_theology.htm. Who is also a political activist, doesn't say much for the reliability of this particular source.
Sorry, but that whole tactic is not only totally off topic, it's been covered in many other threads. I simply won't get into such discussions in this thread.
Do all you folk realize how hard it was for me to write that? LOL.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Jor-el, posted 02-22-2005 7:43 PM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jor-el, posted 02-22-2005 8:23 PM jar has replied

  
Jor-el
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 168 (187599)
02-22-2005 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
02-22-2005 8:13 PM


Then let us not discuss him, but what he bases his statements on.
What is the source material he used to make that affirmation?

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 02-22-2005 8:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jor-el
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 168 (187600)
02-22-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by purpledawn
02-22-2005 8:11 PM


Re: Documentary Hypothesis
This "Documentary Hypothesis" warrants further study.
As it is, it's a good starting point to clear up the "Moses wrote the Pentateuch" discussion.

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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6726 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 41 of 168 (187601)
02-22-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 8:06 PM


Re: Yes
The faith is in you, not in the book or it's words. People have faith, not inanimate objects or even ideas.
Do not make the mistake of imparting anything more to the bible and it's stories then is there. That is exactly what I meant when I refferred to literalists missing the forest for the trees.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 168 (187602)
02-22-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 8:23 PM


Again, this is way off topic. This thread is about what the allegory, metaphor or message of Genesis is. There have been dozens of threads on the sources and origins of the various tales in Genesis here. Before starting yet another take the time to go back and research all that has already been posted here.
You might want to start with this one or this one or this one, or this one, or this one.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Sylas
Member (Idle past 5519 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 43 of 168 (187609)
02-22-2005 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 8:23 PM


symbols and sources: (the Documentary Hypothesis)
Let me echo the recommendation to read "Who Wrote the Bible", by Richard Freidman. This is easy and excellent reading, and gives a great popular introduction to the documentary hypothesis. It reads like a mystery novel, and I found it absolutely riveting when I first met up with it some years ago. Get the second edition.
There is an interesting interview with Friedman at beliefnet, in which he explains his view of the development of the bible (especially the Torah), and the concerns of the writers.
Although there are strong words spoken across the divisions of liberal and conservative scholarship (for want of better labels), in many cases this comes down to matters of emphasis. Effectively all scholars, both liberal and conservative, recognize that there are sources prior to the bible; and also that the Torah is now a single structure worthy of study in its own right.
A simplified account is available at Documentary Hypothesis, from "Religious Studies" at the University of Pennsylvania.
The relevance to the thread is that Genesis in particular is a mix of the J, E and P sources, with J and E so tightly integrated that it is sometimes useful to simply see them as one prior source. The first (and younger!) creation account is "P" (Priestly) and the second (older!) is from JE (Jahwist or Jerusalem, and Elohist or Ephraimitic).
This textual analysis helps illuminate the particular concerns and emphases of the two creation accounts. Hence I have called a Genesis 1 a defence of monotheism, and jar has described it as distinguishing Judaism. This emphasis is perfectly apparent in the form of the story structure as literature. The emphasis also turns out to be consistent with some more subtle clues in use of language and symbolism, which have been used to identify the writer as "P" (Priestly).
The second account Genesis 2-3 is (IMO) harder to analyse; but here also the symbols and the literary style identify the writer and are consistent with that writer’s larger concerns.
We have a potential problem here in the wings; people will need to take care not to merely dismiss one side or the other as "non-Christian" or "non-scholarly".
This whole area reflects a style of analysis called "higher criticism", or "textual analysis". You'll find it used in any advanced tertiary level course in biblical studies associated with the major universities; but may be described very negatively in some seminaries having a tight linkage to a particular denominational group.
Any major university with a program in bible studies will have lots of books on this. A common reference is the Anchor Bible Dictionary, and when I was looking into this some ten years ago, Friedman was the a major contributing writer to sections in the Dictionary dealing with the subject.
Cheers -- Sylas
(Added in edit. Thanks for the reminder on topic, jar. I'm going to go back and prune my post a little.)
This message has been edited by Sylas, 02-22-2005 21:36 AM
PPS. Major pruning complete. I consider what remains to be on topic, since the metaphors and concerns of the two creation accounts are reflections of the sources. But I agree that debating the validity of higher criticism in detail would be a distraction.
This message has been edited by Sylas, 02-22-2005 21:55 AM
Fix Friedman link. --Admin
This message has been edited by Admin, 02-24-2005 10:47 AM

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 168 (187610)
02-22-2005 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by mikehager
02-22-2005 4:43 PM


Re: If we're talking about the fall,
That's a great interpretation.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1726 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 45 of 168 (187611)
02-22-2005 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by tardygm2
02-22-2005 7:33 PM


what the hell
What the hell what?

This message is a reply to:
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