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Author Topic:   Geomagnetism and the rate of Sea-floor Spreading
edge
Member (Idle past 1707 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 226 of 234 (186031)
02-16-2005 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Hydroplate Hippie
02-16-2005 1:17 PM


This is real torture, folks
quote:
Intuitively, I would expect to see a LOT more deadly tsunamis if so much mass was actually being subducted annually on seafloors by whichever mechanism plate tectonics theory happens to favor today (pushing, conveying, dropping, or pulling).
Then you would be intuitively wrong. We see as many tsuanmis as we see because that's how many there are. Not all earthquakes, and not all earthquakes at subduction zones, produce tsunamis.
And it isn't always subduction, either. In the case of Krakatau, it was the collapse of a caldera. Same part of the world. Similar death toll.
I need a beer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Hydroplate Hippie, posted 02-16-2005 1:17 PM Hydroplate Hippie has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 234 (186043)
02-16-2005 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Hydroplate Hippie
02-16-2005 2:59 PM


Re: Geo 101 Plate Tectonics vs Hydroplate
quote:
Jazzns, you evidently haven’t studied the Hydroplate theory much (if at all), since it predicts slow moving plates (not driven by convection currents) with predominant movement toward the western pacific and the trenches.
--I believe Jazzns reference to evidences for plate motion is in the context of seafloor spreading. How does hydroplate geodynamics account for this if seafloor spreading, or atleast that plate divergence is not supposed to have occured to any significance? I addressed this in a post earlier in this thread--how does the hydoplate theory explain large scale geophysical features of the seafloor like hydrothermal distribution, lithospheric thickness, and bathymetry? The typical patterns in these geophysical seafloor characteristics are as functions of distance from plate divergent boundaries. Furthermore, these characteristics have been modeled convincingly within mainstream PT theory.
--How are these observations explained under your paradigm of hydroplate geodynamics without seafloor spreading?
--The original topic of this thread was largely in reference to the changing frequency of geomagnetic reversals over time seen in the GPTS data. This data is has not been invented, but has been uncovered through detailed geophysical analysis. While each successive reversal is relatively random, the pattern of the changing frequency is observed:
I am interested in hearing your explanation of this data.
-Chris Grose
This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 02-16-2005 23:44 AM

"...research [is] a strenuous and devoted attempt to force nature into the conceptual boxes supplied by professional education. Simultaneously, we shall wonder whether research could proceed without such boxes, whatever the element of arbitrariness in their historic origins and, occasionally, in their subsequent development." Kuhn, T. S.; The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, pp. 5, 1996.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Hydroplate Hippie, posted 02-16-2005 2:59 PM Hydroplate Hippie has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 234 (186092)
02-17-2005 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Hydroplate Hippie
02-16-2005 1:17 PM


Coincident variations in geomagnetic anomalies and bathymetry
quote:
Likewise to the LDEO reference above, we’ve all seen the very nice linear symmetric bands illustrating geomagnetic reversals and seafloor spreading in the textbooks... but have you ever seen a topographical map showing the actual magnetometer fluctuations? We really need to get some actual maps posted here - of real data! It is not like the textbooks illustrate, especially when viewing the entire ridge as a whole.
--I do recall looking at 3D topographic maps with geomagnetic anomalies. I don't recall there being any direct relation between bathymetry and geomagnetic intensity. However there is indirect relation in that the general process of seafloor spreading is accompanied by isolated events of extrusive volcanism which not only may imprint an altered geomagnetic signature on the seafloor but locally add to lithospheric thickness thereby effecting isostatic balance, hence bathymetric anomalies. I have a membership and subscribe to several AGU journals, maybe I can dig up something. At any rate, I really don't think you will find what you are supposing. Of course.. I don't really know exactly what you are implying if it is not that geomagnetic anomalies are related to variations in bathymetry, so if you could address this directly I would appreciate it.
-Chris Grose

"...research [is] a strenuous and devoted attempt to force nature into the conceptual boxes supplied by professional education. Simultaneously, we shall wonder whether research could proceed without such boxes, whatever the element of arbitrariness in their historic origins and, occasionally, in their subsequent development." Kuhn, T. S.; The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, pp. 5, 1996.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Hydroplate Hippie, posted 02-16-2005 1:17 PM Hydroplate Hippie has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 229 of 234 (186140)
02-17-2005 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Hydroplate Hippie
02-16-2005 12:18 PM


Re: Forum Guidelines Warning
Hydroplate Hippie writes:
Admin Director writes:
The responsibility for enforcing the guidelines and noting violations lies soley with moderators.
Percy, are you are implying that members are prohibited from noting particularly poor debate techniques such as attacking the person — not the problem? If an individual persists in mindless attacks and wasting everyone’s time, then it seems appropriate to refer them to a site where those tactics are in vogue and expected (Michael Moore | Substack).
Prohibited from noting possible guideline violations? No, of course not. But on the other hand, moderators do not want to see it used as a rhetorical device to dismiss valid arguments.
Members should not set themselves up as judge and jury. If you feel you're the victim of a guidelines violation, seek moderator assistance. One guidelines violation does not justify another guidelines violation in response. If you feel someone's response is violating the Forum Guidelines, then either don't respond or ask for moderator help. Responding in kind will get you in trouble.
Removed extraneous comment. --Admin
This message has been edited by Admin, 02-17-2005 15:38 AM

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Hydroplate Hippie, posted 02-16-2005 12:18 PM Hydroplate Hippie has not replied

  
Hydroplate Hippie
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 234 (186447)
02-18-2005 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by crashfrog
02-16-2005 12:09 PM


Grab the Life Jackets - this Ship's Sinking
213 Crashfrog
JonF writes:
Lack of a mechnanism does not trump evidence.
Crashfrog writes:
If we observe evidence of magnetic pole reversals, and it conflicts with our understanding of the laws of physics, then it is our understanding of the laws that must be in error, not our observations.
WOW, THAT’S AWESOME! You guys have just validated in one sentence what it has taken me many posts to detail.
Plate Tectonics paradigm (based on supposed seafloor spreading as interpreted by inferred geomagnetic reversals) triumphs over the laws of physics (or at least our understanding of the laws of physics)!
I've never heard anyone in any other scientific discipline hold forth such wisdom (and I've been around a while).
The laws of fundamental physics are the most solid and reliable laws known in the scientific realm.
And most would agree the laws of fundamental physics are very predictable and very well understood.
To assert that one’s inferred causation assigned to evidence (worldview) triumphs over physical law is not an enviable position to claim with respect to the scientific method.
This discussion has fully served its purpose unless someone can answer the points raised in post 192 and hopefully ....... rescue the laws of physics!
I've enjoyed the visit here and I have invested a considerable amount of time. Now I'm returning to spend more time with my family and my other obligations.
Gengar - email me if you are ever in the area. I owe you some ale!
It's been real. Keep learning and always question everything... because sometimes... We don't know what we don't "know"!
Supposing is good but finding out is better. (Mark Twain)
Best to you all,
Hydroplate Hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by crashfrog, posted 02-16-2005 12:09 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Percy, posted 02-18-2005 8:53 AM Hydroplate Hippie has not replied
 Message 232 by Chiroptera, posted 02-18-2005 8:57 AM Hydroplate Hippie has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 231 of 234 (186469)
02-18-2005 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Hydroplate Hippie
02-18-2005 2:51 AM


Re: Grab the Life Jackets - this Ship's Sinking
Hi Hydroplate Hippie,
I'm pretty sure that when Crash says "then it is our understanding of the laws that must be in error" that it's an indirect reference not to fundamental physical laws but to your deductions about their implications within the earth.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Hydroplate Hippie, posted 02-18-2005 2:51 AM Hydroplate Hippie has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 234 (186470)
02-18-2005 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Hydroplate Hippie
02-18-2005 2:51 AM


Re: Grab the Life Jackets - this Ship's Sinking
quote:
The laws of fundamental physics are the most solid and reliable laws known in the scientific realm.
About a hundred years ago, Michaelson and Morley did a series of experiments, the results of which violated the then-known laws of physics. But observations are observations, and data cannot simply be dismissed without explanation. What happened was that Einstein eventually realized that the "laws of fundamental physics" needed to to be revised.
The laws of physics are not absolute laws. They are merely descriptions of how we have observed nature behave, and are subject to change if new observations warrant it.
But it is not always necessary to make a change in the fundamental laws of physics to accomodate new observations. Sometimes new phenomenon are discovered that explains the observations within the old laws. An example, Lord Kelvin used the known temperature-vs-depth data of his time with the known laws of thermodynamics to calcate an age of the earth that was, I believe, only a few hundreds of thousand of years, or maybe a few million years old -- far too young according to geology. The discovery of radioactivity resolved this problem -- by adding a new heat source Kelvin's data, thermodynamics, and geology could be resolved.
Observation always trumps theory. Period. To say otherwise indicates a profound misunderstanding of science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Hydroplate Hippie, posted 02-18-2005 2:51 AM Hydroplate Hippie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by TrueCreation, posted 02-18-2005 6:05 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 234 (186612)
02-18-2005 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Chiroptera
02-18-2005 8:57 AM


Re: Grab the Life Jackets - this Ship's Sinking
quote:
An example, Lord Kelvin used the known temperature-vs-depth data of his time with the known laws of thermodynamics to calcate an age of the earth that was, I believe, only a few hundreds of thousand of years, or maybe a few million years old -- far too young according to geology.
--I believe this estimate was something around 65 My, whereas the accepted age of the earth/solar system is derived from radioisotopic dating of (chondratic?) meteorites--4.5 Gy, a little under 2 orders of magnitude difference. Nevertheless, your point is valid, and I agree with your conclusions.

"...research [is] a strenuous and devoted attempt to force nature into the conceptual boxes supplied by professional education. Simultaneously, we shall wonder whether research could proceed without such boxes, whatever the element of arbitrariness in their historic origins and, occasionally, in their subsequent development." Kuhn, T. S.; The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, pp. 5, 1996.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Chiroptera, posted 02-18-2005 8:57 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by JonF, posted 02-18-2005 9:09 PM TrueCreation has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 234 of 234 (186650)
02-18-2005 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by TrueCreation
02-18-2005 6:05 PM


Re: Grab the Life Jackets - this Ship's Sinking
I believe this estimate was something around 65 My
Kelvin calculated 98 My. Realizing he was working with lots of assumptions, he estimated his errors, yielding more than 20 My but less than 400 My. Later investigators refined his calculations (his original model was not very realistic; it predicted an unreasonable temperature gradient with depth) and used better data, culminating in an estimate of 24 million years by Clarence King in 1893.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by TrueCreation, posted 02-18-2005 6:05 PM TrueCreation has not replied

  
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