Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,929 Year: 4,186/9,624 Month: 1,057/974 Week: 16/368 Day: 16/11 Hour: 0/0


EvC Forum ⇒ Science Forums ⇒ Is It Science? ⇒

Thermodynamics

Thread ▼ Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Thermodynamics
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003

Normal Thread Display
Message 29 of 159 (184881)
02-13-2005 12:26 PM 		Reply to: Message 28 by Electron
02-13-2005 12:21 PM

The difference between K and Shannon?
Kolmogorov complexity is one method whereby the measure is the minimum number of bits into which a binary representation of the object can be compressed without losing information.
​
My memory is fuzzy here but how is that different from Shannon's definition?
​
It sounds like it should be at least related to Shannon information so I'm not sure if it adds anything useful? Can you cover that?
​
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 02-13-2005 12:28 AM
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Electron, posted 02-13-2005 12:21 PM Electron has not replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by JonF, posted 02-13-2005 2:38 PM NosyNed has not replied
  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003

Normal Thread Display
Message 53 of 159 (185085)
02-14-2005 10:43 AM 		Reply to: Message 51 by Jordo86
02-14-2005 10:22 AM

The question at hand
The issue here was thermodynamics and evolution. Have you been satisfied on that topic?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Jordo86, posted 02-14-2005 10:22 AM Jordo86 has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Jordo86, posted 02-14-2005 10:56 AM NosyNed has replied
  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003

Normal Thread Display
Message 55 of 159 (185090)
02-14-2005 11:06 AM 		Reply to: Message 54 by Jordo86
02-14-2005 10:56 AM

Complex?
What is this complex thing? You haven't defined it yet. In fact you haven't defined ordered yet.
​
If you read the links you were given you find that both order and complexity ( without a numerical definition there either) can increase without any thermodynmic problems. Did you miss that part?
​
Message 22
​
JonF even pulls parts out of the links which note the error in using order vs disorder in this context. Please read it over more carefully.
​
It is interesting that you say this:
ts been years since iv read creationist material (excepting the quick skim through the link one of the fellas posted earlier on)so if i ever do word anything like the typical creationist, its must be subconsciously. But i am not very familiar with many creationist arguments aside from the basic questions most people would think of if they were interested in this topic.
​
and then use words like "ordered" and "complex"-- did you pick those terms yourself?
​
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 02-14-2005 11:08 AM
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Jordo86, posted 02-14-2005 10:56 AM Jordo86 has not replied
  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003

Normal Thread Display
Message 80 of 159 (185244)
02-14-2005 5:37 PM 		Reply to: Message 79 by crashfrog
02-14-2005 2:21 PM

Why the continued issue about order?
I thought JonF's post made it clear that isn't what the 2nd law is about.
​
In addition, Jordo goes on about "violating the 2nd law" for a temporatry time then it seems to overpower something and it dies.
​
The 2nd law is not violtated when free energy is available. That is one of his fundamental misunderstandings.
​
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 02-14-2005 17:39 AM
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by crashfrog, posted 02-14-2005 2:21 PM crashfrog has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 02-14-2005 5:42 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 82 by Percy, posted 02-14-2005 7:35 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 84 by Jordo86, posted 02-14-2005 7:59 PM NosyNed has replied
  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003

Normal Thread Display
Message 86 of 159 (185301)
02-14-2005 8:09 PM 		Reply to: Message 84 by Jordo86
02-14-2005 7:59 PM

Harnessing the Energy
But as i said before, all the energy in the universe is usless if there is not something harnessing it and directing it.
​
But you were suggesting that the 2nd law was a problem for evolution. In what way is there any problem what-so-ever if there is free energy available to do work?
​
The 2nd law is simply NOT an issue under those circumstances.
​
But this is only a temporary thing, so in the end no law has been violated.
​
The 2nd law is not violated even temporarily. This is not an sensible statement to make.
​
But original life? I would think that they would have just been burnt in sunlight.
​
Why are we discussing "original life"? We were discussing what the 2nd law has to do with evolution. Can you explain why this is relevant in anyway?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Jordo86, posted 02-14-2005 7:59 PM Jordo86 has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Jordo86, posted 02-14-2005 8:22 PM NosyNed has replied
  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003

Normal Thread Display
Message 89 of 159 (185313)
02-14-2005 8:29 PM 		Reply to: Message 88 by Jordo86
02-14-2005 8:22 PM

Original Life Forms
So are you telling me that the 2nd law doesnt apply to the original lifeforms?
​
No, I agree it applies all the time. Any suggested chemistry for the origin of life or the survival of the original replicators has to be thermodynamically resonable.
​
That is, of course, understood and taken into consideration by the chemists working in that area.
​
It can't be that you think they wouldn't have understood that from day one can it?
​
If by "original life forms" you mean early life on the planet I don't know why you think there is any special issue. Would you like to explain?
​
ABE
But original life? I would think that they would have just been burnt in sunlight.
​
Ah, looking back I think I see what the problem is.
​
Why do you think that direct sunlight is the only way that any form of life can make use of the free energy? It isn't; in fact we know know that there are life forms that do not depend on sunlight for their energy at all.
​
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 02-14-2005 20:32 AM
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Jordo86, posted 02-14-2005 8:22 PM Jordo86 has not replied
  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003

Normal Thread Display
Message 131 of 159 (186512)
02-18-2005 11:07 AM 		Reply to: Message 129 by Jordo86
02-18-2005 10:55 AM

Origin of the universe
As noted several times in this thread:
Where Did Big Bang Energy Come From?
the answer is unknown.
​
And as Crash says in the previous msg it is not an evolutionary question in any case.
​
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 02-18-2005 11:08 AM
This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Jordo86, posted 02-18-2005 10:55 AM Jordo86 has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Jordo86, posted 02-18-2005 11:12 AM NosyNed has not replied
  
Date format: mm-dd-yyyy
Timezone: ET (US)
  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024