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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 7180 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 91 of 381 (186076)
02-17-2005 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by arachnophilia
02-16-2005 1:08 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
quote:
god said, "don't eat it, or you'll day that same day"
the snake said, "god's lying. you won't die, you'll become like god, with your eyes open knowing good and evil."
what happens at the end of genesis 3? what god said, or what the snake said?
It is commonly believed that God was referring to spiritual death, which did occur that very day. God is concerned more about your spiritual condition than your physical condition. Perhaps He had considered physical death as a penalty and relented and gave them a reprieve. What would be considered a great kindness if it came from a human judge is now deemed a fault in God? If you were sentenced to death and the presiding judge called you back in court and said "I've changed my mind, I'm going to let you live", would you call him a liar?
Adam and Eve's eyes were opened to evil. They had already known good through God. They certainly did not become like God in any desirable way, although satan sure made it sound good, didn't he? And they did die physically eventually.
Fixed quote.PB
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 02-18-2005 01:23 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by arachnophilia, posted 02-16-2005 1:08 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by arachnophilia, posted 02-17-2005 1:49 AM xevolutionist has replied
 Message 115 by ramoss, posted 02-21-2005 8:15 AM xevolutionist has replied

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 7180 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 92 of 381 (186080)
02-17-2005 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by dbrennan
02-16-2005 10:50 PM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
What part or parts of the Bible are you referring to? I'm interested as in the previous posts our spider friendly expert argued very convincingly that God did not lie in the prophet example, and I think I've presented a good case for the Genesis 2:17 verse. Pending rebuttal of course.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by arachnophilia, posted 02-17-2005 1:54 AM xevolutionist has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1600 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 93 of 381 (186081)
02-17-2005 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by xevolutionist
02-17-2005 1:35 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
It is commonly believed that God was referring to spiritual death, which did occur that very day.
that's nice, where in genesis does it say that? see, god says "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." it's DIE as in "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." is this verse talking about spiritual death too, because it's all the same word. god even says "SURELY die." as in DIE die, which is what the hebrew says: it emphasizes things by repetition.
the verse is clearly talking about physical death. this spiritual death thing was invented to explain god's lie, because according to the text he doesn't fulfill his word.
God is concerned more about your spiritual condition than your physical condition.
the authors of the ot didn't seem to think so.
Perhaps He had considered physical death as a penalty and relented and gave them a reprieve
or perhaps he's just like any parent who says "don't do that or i'll KILL you" meaning punish severly. not actual death of any kind.
What would be considered a great kindness if it came from a human judge is now deemed a fault in God?
some people would consider that a fault in an earthly judge. however, you've dodged the original question.
god says "you'll die."
the snake says "you won't die, your eyes will be opened and you'll be like god."
who told the truth, according to the text?
If you were sentenced to death and the presiding judge called you back in court and said "I've changed my mind, I'm going to let you live", would you call him a liar?
where does god say he changed his mind? in fact, i'll go one step further, where does god say it's a punishment? it only says eat it, and you'll die. as in it will kill you.
Adam and Eve's eyes were opened to evil. They had already known good through God.
no, now you're making stuff up. what's the tree called again?
They certainly did not become like God in any desirable way
reading the passage in question would help:
quote:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
although satan sure made it sound good,
when did we start talking about satan? i never mentioned satan. it's a serpent, a snake. the story is even an etiology of why snakes have no legs, and stick their tongues out. does satan do that?
And they did die physically eventually.
yes, but as indicated by the end of genesis 3, they were going to anyways.
quote:
Gen 3:22 ...and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
also, eventually is not the question:
quote:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by xevolutionist, posted 02-17-2005 1:35 AM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by xevolutionist, posted 02-17-2005 2:21 AM arachnophilia has replied
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1600 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 94 of 381 (186082)
02-17-2005 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by xevolutionist
02-17-2005 1:48 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
What part or parts of the Bible are you referring to? I'm interested as in the previous posts our spider friendly expert argued very convincingly that God did not lie in the prophet example, and I think I've presented a good case for the Genesis 2:17 verse. Pending rebuttal of course.
rebutted.
also,
quote:
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And [the LORD] said, Thou shalt entice [him], and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do [even] so.
i'm sure a few other examples will be found too. god also fails to punish lies (or rather half truths) on the part of abraham regarding his "sister" sarah. this scheme seems to work so well and reward abraham to such an extent that he does it three times if i recall, and isaac even does it once.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by xevolutionist, posted 02-17-2005 1:48 AM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 7180 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 95 of 381 (186085)
02-17-2005 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by arachnophilia
02-17-2005 1:49 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
[quote]: it emphasizes things by repetition.
the verse is clearly talking about physical death. this spiritual death thing was invented to explain god's lie, because according to the text he doesn't fulfill his word.[quote] God didn't include every thought and action of His in the Bible, just because something is not specifically written does not mean that is not plausible.
It may be the same word in both places but it doesn't have the same emphasis,[which is denoted in more ways than repetition] indicating a different meaning. In Genesis 5:5 it says "and he died." not "and he surely died!"
I didn't dodge the question, I presented plausible arguments, and what does it matter whether God said it was a punishment or not? My answer didn't state that was a fact, it was a possibility I raised.
The original question "who lied, God or satan?" was answered : satan. They did die spiritually, and they did not become like God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by arachnophilia, posted 02-17-2005 1:49 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by doctrbill, posted 02-17-2005 10:03 PM xevolutionist has replied
 Message 106 by arachnophilia, posted 02-19-2005 4:03 AM xevolutionist has replied

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 7180 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 96 of 381 (186088)
02-17-2005 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by arachnophilia
02-17-2005 1:54 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
These are easy ones, but it's late and I have dogs to walk and work tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
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dbrennan
Inactive Junior Member


Message 97 of 381 (186090)
02-17-2005 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by arachnophilia
02-17-2005 1:49 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
Nowhere in Genesis does it actually say "Spiritually Die." But also nowhere in the bible do we see the word "Trinity." These are things that theologians have given a name to describe things in the bible.
The bible has a continous concern for the spiritual life as opposed to the physical. God is always concerned about what is truly in your heart. Not what you do in the physical.
Spiritual death is a penalty. It is a seperation from God. When God said "...you will die." He meant it as he will punish them.
Now the question of whether or not the serpent lied or not. No he just confused the situation. He said that they would not die(physically) and he was relying on the idea that Adam and Eve did not understand God about it being a spiritual death.
And Satan was the serpent in the Garden. He had possessed the serpent. Satan is also referred to as a serpent in Revelation.
And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him (Revelation 12:9).
And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, (Revelation 20:2).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by arachnophilia, posted 02-17-2005 1:49 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 7180 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 98 of 381 (186152)
02-17-2005 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by arachnophilia
02-17-2005 1:54 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
First, the 2 examples you give are seperate accounts of the same story, almost identical in wording.
Second, a great deal of communication is not verbal, and in 1 Kings 22:16 it is obvious that Ahab knew the first statement by Micaiah was not true. Whether Micaiah rolled his eyes or leered and laughed we don't know, but Ahab knew that Micaiah's pronouncement was ironic. Ahab had had a graphic demonstration that his prophets were fallabile in 1 Kings Ch.18.
Third, through Micaiah, God tells Ahab that Ahab's prophets are lying . The statement that God put a lying spirit in their mouths is a warning from God not to believe them, and that God is in control. Then God reveals exactly what will happen, Ahab will die.
Where is it that God lies? It seems to me the opposite, that God tells the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by arachnophilia, posted 02-17-2005 1:54 AM arachnophilia has replied

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 3021 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 99 of 381 (186421)
02-17-2005 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by xevolutionist
02-17-2005 2:21 AM


Wise as Serpents
xevolutionist writes:
... they did not become like God.
Methinks thou shouldest read the story, friend. Clue: Genesis 3:22
PS - A 'spiritual' death is no more supportable than the assertion you make above. It is clear that the deity's prediction failed while the serpent's came to pass. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to figure out why the story reads this way and share your newfound knowledge in this forum. Yes?
Good Luck.
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by xevolutionist, posted 02-17-2005 2:21 AM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by xevolutionist, posted 02-18-2005 11:30 AM doctrbill has replied
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 7180 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 100 of 381 (186525)
02-18-2005 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by doctrbill
02-17-2005 10:03 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
What specifically is deficient about my assertion above?
I suppose everyone sees things a little differently. Yes, God says that he "became like us to know good and evil", but was expelled from the garden before he could eat of the "tree of life."
I think Adam and Eve received a tiny bit of knowledge of evil for giving up eternal life in the warm embrace of a loving God.
Elsewhere in the Bible satan is known as the deceiver and the adversary. Is that because he was so truthful?
Romans, chapters, 5 and 6 specifically address spiritual death. The exact term, "spiritual death" may not be used, but the concept is there.
This message has been edited by xevolutionist, 02-18-2005 11:39 AM
This message has been edited by xevolutionist, 02-18-2005 11:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by doctrbill, posted 02-17-2005 10:03 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 111 by ramoss, posted 02-19-2005 11:49 AM xevolutionist has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 101 of 381 (186575)
02-18-2005 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by xevolutionist
02-18-2005 11:30 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
double post
This message has been edited by Brian, 02-18-2005 14:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 102 of 381 (186576)
02-18-2005 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by xevolutionist
02-18-2005 11:30 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Elsewhere in the Bible satan is known as the deceiver and the adversary.
And Satan cannot act without God first giving him the okay to do so.
Is that because he was so truthful?
Well the serpent certainly exposed a deceiver in the second Genesis creation myth and we all know who that was.
Romans, chapters, 5 and 6 specifically address spiritual death. The exact term, "spiritual death" may not be used, but the concept is there.
This is in the New Testament, which has nothing to do with the Tanakh.
The spiritual death apologetic is simply an invention to explain away God's blatant lie.
It is a bit like the 'generation' apologetic that tries to explain away Jesus' failure to return within a generation of his death, a feat he obvioulsy failed to perform.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 3021 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 103 of 381 (186611)
02-18-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by xevolutionist
02-18-2005 11:30 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
xevolutionist writes:
What specifically is deficient about my assertion above?
I did not say that your assertion is deficient.
I did say that your assertion is "unsupportable." IMO
I suppose everyone sees things a little differently. Yes, God says that he "became like us to know good and evil", but was expelled from the garden before he could eat of the "tree of life."
Which shows that the LORD God didn't really expect Adam to die that day. And, it suggests that Adam could have avoided God's punishment, simply by eating something special.
I think Adam and Eve received a tiny bit of knowledge of evil for giving up eternal life in the warm embrace of a loving God.
I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Elsewhere in the Bible satan is known as the deceiver and the adversary. Is that because he was so truthful?
Elsewhere in the Bible the serpent is an icon of wisdom and salvation.
Romans, chapters, 5 and 6 specifically address spiritual death. The exact term, "spiritual death" may not be used, but the concept is there.
In these chapters, Paul likens baptism to the death and resurrection of Christ and says, Christ died for us. Was the death of Christ a 'spiritual death'? Paul also talks about 'death to sin.' I understand how that might be considered a spiritual death, but: Did Adam 'die to sin.'?
quote:
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned ..." Romans 5:17 KJV
Is this talking about 'spiritual death'? I don't think so. Were all those sinless people 'spiritually dead'? That doesn't seem reasonable either.
In these two chapters, Paul cites Adam as the one who brought death into the world. Does that mean 'spiritual death'? I don't think so. I think it means exactly what it says. Paul makes it clear that he is comparing baptism to death and resurrection by way of analogy. Dying to the old man of sin and being reborn to a new life in Christ. I see nothing in these two chapters which gives us license to reinterpret Genesis.
Outside the context of Paul's obviously poetic discourse, what reason do we have to rewrite the scripture? Because we don't like what it says? Because we don't understand what it says? Because it's different from what we've been told? Because its not what we already believe?
Are these reasons good enough excuse to tweak the "word of God"?
I understand the concept of spiritual death. I just don't believe that is what we are dealing with in the Garden of Eden story.
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by xevolutionist, posted 02-18-2005 11:30 AM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 7180 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 104 of 381 (186674)
02-19-2005 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by doctrbill
02-18-2005 6:00 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Which shows that the LORD God didn't really expect Adam to die that day. And, it suggests that Adam could have avoided God's punishment, simply by eating something special.
I felt that showed God wanted to give us a much richer existence than the one we ended up with. I read a review about an author who proposed in a recent book that this entire creation's purpose was to eliminate evil. I haven't had a chance to read that one yet but it sounds interesting.
"I think Adam and Eve received a tiny bit of knowledge of evil for giving up eternal life in the warm embrace of a loving God." What I said that didn't get transferred to the post was that good liars include a little truth to get you to accept the big lie. If someone told me I could become like God I think I'd expect more than the knowledge that I was naked, untrustworthy, and evicted.
In these chapters, Paul likens baptism to the death and resurrection of Christ and says, Christ died for us. Was the death of Christ a 'spiritual death'? Paul also talks about 'death to sin.' I understand how that might be considered a spiritual death, but: Did Adam 'die to sin.'?
Yes, in my opinion, the death of Christ was a spiritual death. When Christ took our sins on the cross He was separated from God for a time spiritually. " My God, My God, why hast though forsaken me?"
Death to sin is what we strive for, not the death through sin we and Adam received.
Elsewhere in the Bible the serpent is an icon of wisdom and salvation
The serpent, not satan, was used as an example of wisdom. The bronze serpent was a reminder of sin's penalty. Which Jesus paid when He was lifted up on the cross.
As to those who had not sinned;
I think you meant Romans 5:14 and the complete sentence continues, "even those who had not sinned in the same way as Adam." There were no sinless people. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
I am not trying to rewrite scripture, I am trying to interpret it as one complete, consistent message from God, which is what I believe it is. I think my interpretation is reasonable and consistent with what God reveals about His character.
This message has been edited by xevolutionist, 02-19-2005 01:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by doctrbill, posted 02-18-2005 6:00 PM doctrbill has replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1600 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 105 of 381 (186684)
02-19-2005 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by xevolutionist
02-17-2005 10:40 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
First, the 2 examples you give are seperate accounts of the same story, almost identical in wording.
thus the reason why they are put in the same quote box. and i wouldn't call them separate accounts. one is clearly plaigarizing the other.
The statement that God put a lying spirit in their mouths is a warning from God not to believe them, and that God is in control.
yes, and that god is making them lie.

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