Thermodynamics

I will agree with you on that one to a degree. I still think a house is ordered, but in the sense that all the pieces are now mixed with other pieces instead of neat little piles...then you are right.But, but, but, but...in the construction of a house these "workmen" are intelligent. Thats the difference. The way evolution works (in my opinion but you can convince me otherwise) in this situation would be to take out the workmen, and add something natural without intelligence behind it. Like the wind, or an earthquake. Hell, lets put something with small intelligence in to give the house a chance and put monkees into the scenario. Then what do we get?

Thermodynamics doesn't give you any breaks for "following a code". And it realy isn't as simple as saying that our body shuts down. Cancer cells for instance can keep on dividing much like bacteria - and that's a major part of the problem with them (there's a strain that's still going, now - more than 50 years after the woman they were taken from died http://www.madsci.org/.../archives/may97/860431113.Cb.r.html )The origin of the first replicators is outside of evolutionary theory (since they COULDN'T have been produced by evolution) and we know little about it. However there's no reason to suppose that it required a genuine violation of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics. Moreover, there's no reason to suppose that the first replicartors had to "die" to reproduce or that they used "code" (more likely they involved an autocatalytic reaction). And no, there is no reason to assume that the process involves even ONE violation of the 2nd Law - let alone many as you claim.

Both JonF in Message 22 and myself in Message 37 explained why this is the wrong way to think about thermodynamics. The thermodynamic laws are not about the growth and aging process. The process of aging is not equivalent to accumulating increasing amounts of entropy until you die. The degree of disorderliness or entropy must be considered at the molecular level, not the living organism level.As you go through Jar's example, keep in mind that it's an analogy. Thermodynamically, there is no meaningful difference between nails in a box and nails nailed into wood. Could you be more specific? What part of the development of the original organisms violated the laws of thermodynamics? This contains a serious misconception, that the genetic code contains information which allows it to overcome the laws of thermodynamics. I think that if you try to identify some specific part of the life cycle of organisms that violates the laws of thermodynamics that you won't be able to do it. What life violates is your misunderstanding of the laws of thermodynamics. Once again, I don't think you'll be able to identify anything specific in life that violates the laws of thermodynamics.--Percy

You're changing the goal posts here. We can deal with your questions about intellegence in a thread that deals with that.For now, let's stick with the house.Do you agree that the house is possible? Do you agree that the fact that a house exists does not violate the 2^nd. Law of Thermodynamics?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No im not changing the goal posts. Your presenting an analogy that is unrealistic with the topic at hand. I do not want to get into a discussion that deals to much with a "higher being" any more than you do, but you are putting intelligence into an analogy that is supposed to help explain how things were created without it!Yes i beleive the house is possible. And no i dont think this in itself is a violation of the law. The house will collapse in time.

In your OP you asked: That is all that we are dealing with in that thread. The topic of ID (Inept Design) is another subject and should be discussed in the Inept Design forum. For now let's try to answer your original question.Now you seem to be agreeing that the creation of the house does not violate the 2^nd. Law of Thermodynamics. Do you agree that the reason it does not violate the 2 Law of Thermodynamics is because energy from an outside source is available?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Im not trying to bring intelligent design into this. You brought it up by having workmen build a house.No i do not agree with you on that one. All the energy in the world means nothing if it isnt harnessed properly. The reason i dont beleive it has violated the law is because something else built the house. As soon as its finished its clock starts to tick. Even if it takes 1000 years the house will succumb to the law and collapse.

Where did the energy come from to build the house?Remember, the 2 Law of Thermodynamics ONLY deals with energy transfer, nothing else.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

In this analogy, the workmen. But i told you i think this analogy is flawed.

Percy i havnt forgotten you dont worry. I will go over what you said tommorow (its nearly 4 in the morning over here) night after i have finished talking to Jar for tonight.

Dude, don't stay up late because of this. I stay up late to study... but not til 4 in the morning.However, if you want to see your creator sooner than usual, you can continue on what you're doing.

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People, please look at the Style Guide for EvC thread by Sylas. Pay particular attention to step 3.SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: Refusal to use the search engine may cause brain cancer.

Heh heh yeah i know i shouldnt. But i dont start work until 12 so i should be alright. I just want to see the end of jars analogy then go to bed.

Okay, I know you think it's flawed but humor an old man.Where do you think the workmen got their energy?And we can certainly continue this tomorrow (or today if on my end) LOL

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yup. Exactly. Nope, not at all like the wind or an earthquake. Like a mechanism or mechanisms for generating variation (mutation, random gene drift, ...) and a powerful filter for selecting the "best" randomly generated organisms (that is ... ta-daa ... natural selection). We know that these natural forces can generate complex (however you define complex) and ordered (however you define ordered) systems, because we've seen it happen and we use those processes as tools.There's a good article on using these mechanisms as tools in Technology Review last month: . Here's a picture from that article, showing an antenna designed for a very difficult task ... no human designer would ever think up a design like this: And, of course, there's the classic example of evolving an electronic circuit to discriminate between waves at different frequencies; the result used less resources than any human designer thought possible, and worked in a way that no human designer had ever thought of, and took advantage of a property of the environment that the humans weren't even aware of. See An Evolved Circuit, Intrinsic in Silicon, Entwined with Physics. Given a few million years of evolution, we get whatever the descendants of the monkeys decide to build. Maybe a house.(By the way, our closest primate relatives are chimpanzees and apes, not monkeys).{fixed typo}This message has been edited by JonF, 02-14-2005 12:57 AM

Ha ha yeah. I better go to bed i can barly see the screen. We shall continue this conversation tomorow night (BTW im enjoying this, its facinating seeing different peoples views on this subject)
Talk to you later mate
-Jordo