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Author Topic:   Is there such a thing as chance?
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 7131 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 166 of 175 (181691)
01-29-2005 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 5:35 AM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
A little bit of wine, a little bit of cancer, a little bit of sin.
we have to start somewhere, don't we?
The Jews had a special method of preserving grapejuice so it would not ferment....called wine.
but, you do as you wish and believe as you wish. Christ would not taste it, why would he want you to taste it? my bible says it was vinegar and gall they offered him on that cross.
well, as I said, you believe as you wish.
the best thing for an upset stomach is not to eat things that make it so. After that, gingerale is good and so is peppermint, and many other things.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Hey, Albert, I agree!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 5:35 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by AdminNosy, posted 01-29-2005 5:40 PM PecosGeorge has not replied
 Message 170 by nator, posted 01-29-2005 11:49 PM PecosGeorge has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4755
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 167 of 175 (181705)
01-29-2005 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by PecosGeorge
01-29-2005 3:40 PM


OrangeTopic Wandering Danger.
Please don't head off into wine drinking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-29-2005 3:40 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 675 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 168 of 175 (181709)
01-29-2005 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by nator
01-29-2005 8:45 AM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
I didn't mean completely bad for you, just bad, in addition to being good.
It goes back to message 132. Some decsions have to be both good and bad. So we weigh the factors, I ask God for a little help, and then we decide.
It goes back to the girl with lukemea. If we had enough faith we could just be cured.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by nator, posted 01-29-2005 8:45 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-29-2005 10:17 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 171 by nator, posted 01-29-2005 11:53 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 7131 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 169 of 175 (181733)
01-29-2005 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 5:47 PM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
Sorry, Nosy says no bibbing
I cannot help you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 5:47 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2428 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 170 of 175 (181745)
01-29-2005 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by PecosGeorge
01-29-2005 3:40 PM


This will be my only post here, O great Admin.
quote:
The Jews had a special method of preserving grapejuice so it would not ferment....called wine.
Uh, fermented grapejuice is, in fact, wine. Alcoholic fermentation.
Fermented wine is vinegar. Acetification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-29-2005 3:40 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-30-2005 1:43 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2428 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 171 of 175 (181746)
01-29-2005 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 5:47 PM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
quote:
I didn't mean completely bad for you, just bad, in addition to being good.
Oh. Well, that isn't what you said.
quote:
It goes back to message 132. Some decsions have to be both good and bad.
Or neutral.
quote:
It goes back to the girl with lukemea. If we had enough faith we could just be cured.
So, it's the sick girl's fault that she doesn't have enough faith to cure herself of cancer?
That is really twisted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 5:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by riVeRraT, posted 01-30-2005 7:17 AM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 675 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 172 of 175 (181791)
01-30-2005 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by nator
01-29-2005 11:53 PM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
quote:I didn't mean completely bad for you, just bad, in addition to being good.
Oh. Well, that isn't what you said.
*sigh*
Scraf, is it still bad for you, even though it is good for you?
I am incorrect in saying that it is bad for you?
quote:It goes back to message 132. Some decsions have to be both good and bad.
Or neutral.
Not sure about that one. I doubt anything could be perfectly neutral.
Or I just haven't seen that yet.
quote:It goes back to the girl with lukemea. If we had enough faith we could just be cured.
So, it's the sick girl's fault that she doesn't have enough faith to cure herself of cancer?
That is really twisted.
Thats sick of you to think that I think its the girl's fault because she doesn't believe. Who's fault would it be really? When you cut through all the BS reply's like that, who's fault is it really?
God's or man's?
Put some thought into it before you reply.

This message is a reply to:
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 7131 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 173 of 175 (181855)
01-30-2005 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by nator
01-29-2005 11:49 PM


Re: This will be my only post here, O great Admin.
There you go, it's from the Merriam Webster dictionary.
I don't expect you to accept a definition other than the one you are familiar with.
Of course these interpretations acquire meaning from what is thought it means. Intoxicating agents are deadly, some require more of it than others to become so. Wisdom is abstaining altogether.
http:/68.153.150.154/may_christians_drink_wine.htm
http:/http://www.chicago-cog.org/wine.htm
I hope the reference works, if not, google 'unfermented wine'.
wine
The common Hebrew word for wine is _yayin_, from a root meaning "to boil up,"
"to be in a ferment." Others derive it from a root meaning "to tread out," and
hence the juice of the grape trodden out. The Greek word for wine is _oinos_,
and the Latin _vinun_. But besides this common Hebrew word, there are several
others which are thus rendered. (1.) Ashishah (2 Sam. 6:19; 1 Chr. 16:3; Cant.
2:5; Hos. 3:1), which, however, rather denotes a solid cake of pressed grapes,
or, as in the Revised Version, a cake of raisins.
(2.) 'Asis, "sweet wine," or
"new wine," the product of the same year (Cant. 8:2; Isa. 49:26; Joel 1:5;
3:18; Amos 9:13), from a root meaning "to tread," hence juice trodden out or
pressed out, thus referring to the method by which the juice is obtained. The
power of intoxication is ascribed to it.
(3.) Hometz. See VINEGAR.
(4.)
Hemer, Deut. 32:14 (rendered "blood of the grape") Isa. 27:2 ("red wine"), Ezra
6:9; 7:22; Dan. 5:1, 2, 4. This word conveys the idea of "foaming," as in the
process of fermentation, or when poured out. It is derived from the root
_hamar_, meaning "to boil up," and also "to be red," from the idea of boiling
or becoming inflamed.
(5.) 'Enabh, a grape (Deut. 32:14). The last clause of
this verse should be rendered as in the Revised Version, "and of the blood of
the grape ['enabh] thou drankest wine [hemer]." In Hos. 3:1 the phrase in
Authorized Version, "flagons of wine," is in the Revised Version correctly
"cakes of raisins." (Comp. Gen. 49:11; Num. 6:3; Deut. 23:24, etc., where this
Hebrew word is rendered in the plural "grapes.")
(6.) Mesekh, properly a
mixture of wine and water with spices that increase its stimulating properties
(Isa. 5:22). Ps. 75:8, "The wine [yayin] is red; it is full of mixture
[mesekh];" Prov. 23:30, "mixed wine;" Isa. 65:11, "drink offering" (R.V.,
"mingled wine").
(7.) Tirosh, properly "must," translated "wine" (Deut. 28:51);
"new wine" (Prov. 3:10); "sweet wine" (Micah 6:15; R.V., "vintage"). This Hebrew
word has been traced to a root meaning "to take possession of" and hence it is
supposed that tirosh is so designated because in intoxicating it takes
possession of the brain. Among the blessings promised to Esau (Gen. 27:28)
mention is made of "plenty of corn and tirosh." Palestine is called "a land of
corn and tirosh" (Deut. 33:28; comp. Isa. 36:17). See also Deut. 28:51; 2 Chr.
32:28; Joel 2:19; Hos. 4:11, ("wine [yayin] and new wine [tirosh] take away the
heart").
(8.) Sobhe (root meaning "to drink to excess," "to suck up," "absorb"),
found only in Isa. 1:22, Hos. 4:18 ("their drink;" Gesen. and marg. of R.V.,
"their carouse"), and Nah. 1:10 ("drunken as drunkards;" lit., "soaked
according to their drink;" R.V., "drenched, as it were, in their drink", i.e.,
according to their sobhe).
(9.) Shekar, "strong drink," any intoxicating
liquor; from a root meaning "to drink deeply," "to be drunken", a generic term
applied to all fermented liquors, however obtained. Num. 28:7, "strong wine"
(R.V., "strong drink"). It is sometimes distinguished from wine, c.g., Lev.
10:9, "Do not drink wine [yayin] nor strong drink [shekar];" Num. 6:3; Judg.
13:4, 7; Isa. 28:7 (in all these places rendered "strong drink"). Translated
"strong drink" also in Isa. 5:11; 24:9; 29:9; 56:12; Prov. 20:1; 31:6; Micah
2:11. (10.) Yekebh (Deut. 16:13, but in R.V. correctly "wine-press"), a vat
into which the new wine flowed from the press. Joel 2:24, "their vats;" 3:13,
"the fats;" Prov. 3:10, "Thy presses shall burst out with new wine [tirosh];"
Hag. 2:16; Jer. 48:33, "wine-presses;" 2 Kings 6:27; Job. 24:11. (11.) Shemarim
(only in plural), "lees" or "dregs" of wine. In Isa. 25:6 it is rendered "wines
on the lees", i.e., wine that has been kept on the lees, and therefore old
wine. (12.) Mesek, "a mixture," mixed or spiced wine, not diluted with water,
but mixed with drugs and spices to increase its strength, or, as some think,
mingled with the lees by being shaken (Ps. 75:8; Prov. 23:30). In Acts 2:13 the
word _gleukos_, rendered "new wine," denotes properly "sweet wine." It must have
been intoxicating. In addition to wine the Hebrews also made use of what they
called _debash_, which was obtained by boiling down must to one-half or
one-third of its original bulk. In Gen. 43:11 this word is rendered "honey." It
was a kind of syrup, and is called by the Arabs at the present day dibs. This
word occurs in the phrase "a land flowing with milk and honey" (debash), Ex.
3:8, 17; 13:5; 33:3; Lev. 20:24; Num. 13: 27. (See HONEY.) Our Lord
miraculously supplied wine at the marriage feast in Cana of Galilee (John
2:1-11). The Rechabites were forbidden the use of wine (Jer. 35). The Nazarites
also were to abstain from its use during the period of their vow (Num. 6:1-4);
and those who were dedicated as Nazarites from their birth were perpetually to
abstain from it (Judg. 13:4, 5; Luke 1:15; 7:33). The priests, too, were
forbidden the use of wine and strong drink when engaged in their sacred
functions (Lev. 10:1, 9-11). "Wine is little used now in the East, from the
fact that Mohammedans are not allowed to taste it, and very few of other creeds
touch it. When it is drunk, water is generally mixed with it, and this was the
custom in the days of Christ also. The people indeed are everywhere very sober
in hot climates; a drunken person, in fact, is never seen", (Geikie's Life of
Christ). The sin of drunkenness, however, must have been not uncommon in the
olden times, for it is mentioned either metaphorically or literally more than
seventy times in the Bible. A drink-offering of wine was presented with the
daily sacrifice (Ex. 29:40, 41), and also with the offering of the first-fruits
(Lev. 23:13), and with various other sacrifices (Num. 15:5, 7, 10). Wine was
used at the celebration of the Passover. And when the Lord's Supper was
instituted, the wine and the unleavened bread then on the paschal table were by
our Lord set apart as memorials of his body and blood. Several emphatic warnings
are given in the New Testament against excess in the use of wine (Luke 21:34;
Rom. 13:13; Eph. 5:18; 1 Tim. 3:8; Titus 1:7).
This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 01-30-2005 13:44 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 675 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 174 of 175 (182001)
01-31-2005 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by PecosGeorge
01-30-2005 1:43 PM


Re: This will be my only post here, O great Admin.
Why don't you start another thread, and we can go over those verses one by one, so that you can see they are out of context.
No-one here is saying that drinking wine in excess is good for you, or is the bible, so you can omit all those verses.
Wine in small amounts is actually good for you, the medical profession seems to agree also. So does the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-30-2005 1:43 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 675 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 175 of 175 (182003)
01-31-2005 7:08 AM


Summary
Well, no one here has proven that there is such a thing, or no such thing as chance.
We have the "random" sub-atomic particles, for which science does not have an explanation for, so assigns the word random to it.
Then we have the other end of the spectrum, where the possibility that human thought is actually pre-determined. That would mean that your thoughts are really not yours. That fits right in with the no-God, no-soul theme that a lot of atheists seem to have.
Are we ready to admit that our thoughts are not our own, and we are not in control of anything?

  
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