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Author Topic:   evolution vs. creationism: evolution wins
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 301 of 310 (180580)
01-25-2005 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by xevolutionist
01-25-2005 5:49 PM


Answering questions
It is a part of intellecutally honest debate to answer questions put to you. They are very clear questions. It is time for you to answer just as clearly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by xevolutionist, posted 01-25-2005 5:49 PM xevolutionist has not replied

xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 302 of 310 (180582)
01-25-2005 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by pink sasquatch
01-25-2005 6:08 PM


Re: define your limits - with references
But lions and tigers can breed. What am I missing now? Didn't someone state that the ability to breed was one of the defining factors determining species? Yes, I think they are all cats.
I meant that there are limits to the species ability to change.Their descendants could never grow flippers and become dolphin like creatures because there is no dna in them that would provide that information. And a million mutations couldn't funish the new information needed for flippers.
Yes I know that animal breeding is not natural selection, but it shows that important genetic information is lost, not gained in new sub species. Domestic animals are a valid example in that context.
I will look up those experiments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-25-2005 6:08 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by AdminNosy, posted 01-25-2005 7:09 PM xevolutionist has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 303 of 310 (180583)
01-25-2005 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by xevolutionist
01-25-2005 7:01 PM


Assertions must be supported
And a million mutations couldn't funish the new information needed for flippers.
That is an assertion, you have no support for it.
I meant that there are limits to the species ability to change.
That is an assertion, you have not supported it yet.
Yes I know that animal breeding is not natural selection, but it shows that important genetic information is lost, not gained in new sub species. Domestic animals are a valid example in that context.
It has been pointed out to you why artificial selection is a flawed example. You have not answered those points.
But lions and tigers can breed. What am I missing now? Didn't someone state that the ability to breed was one of the defining factors determining species? Yes, I think they are all cats.
Have you googled the definition of species on the web? I think it is time you start doing a bit of your own research since you seem to be ignoring what is posted to help you learn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by xevolutionist, posted 01-25-2005 7:01 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 304 of 310 (180585)
01-25-2005 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by pink sasquatch
01-25-2005 6:08 PM


Re: define your limits - with references
I can reference the paramecium experiment to Herbert Spencer Jennings,at the Museum of Comparative Zoology at Harvard, in the 1940's. He was the world authority at the time on the behaviour of microscopic organisms.
The defining limit is the information in the dna. No new information is gained by mutations, the information present is corrupted. I liken it to misspelling words on a page, one or two misplaced letters may not be a problem, but enough wrong ones and it is meaningless.
As to dogs, my thought, admittedly not clearly expressed at the time, was that if they are bred any smaller they will vanish. There will always be new breeds of dogs, but they are fairly predictable as to what they will be: dogs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-25-2005 6:08 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by CK, posted 01-25-2005 7:40 PM xevolutionist has not replied
 Message 307 by crashfrog, posted 01-25-2005 9:48 PM xevolutionist has not replied
 Message 309 by Coragyps, posted 01-25-2005 9:59 PM xevolutionist has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 305 of 310 (180587)
01-25-2005 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by xevolutionist
01-25-2005 7:31 PM


Re: define your limits - with references
Why, why are you doing this to yourself? What are you opening up a second front for attack?
STOP LOOKING AT CREATIONIST SITES AND READ SOME SCIENCE BOOKS.
sigh....
OK would you like to define information for me? What does it mean? Not in the general sense - within the context of your example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by xevolutionist, posted 01-25-2005 7:31 PM xevolutionist has not replied

xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 306 of 310 (180588)
01-25-2005 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by AdminNosy
01-25-2005 7:09 PM


Re: Assertions must be supported
I thought that biological species were species that had the ability to breed. I shall do more studying, and provide adequate arguments for those assertions before making any more posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by AdminNosy, posted 01-25-2005 7:09 PM AdminNosy has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 307 of 310 (180618)
01-25-2005 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by xevolutionist
01-25-2005 7:31 PM


No new information is gained by mutations, the information present is corrupted. I liken it to misspelling words on a page, one or two misplaced letters may not be a problem, but enough wrong ones and it is meaningless.
DNA doesn't contain meaning, however. It contains sequences, some of which are translated into amino acid sequences. Any mutation may change the resulting sequence of amino acids, and there's no limit to how much change.
That's where your analogy breaks down - all "words" in DNA are essentially equivalent. There are no "mispellings" because there are no three-letter triplet codes that do not either represent an amino acid or represent a start or stop codon.
There will always be new breeds of dogs, but they are fairly predictable as to what they will be: dogs.
There will always be new mammals, but there is no doubt that they will be mammals. There will always be new vertebrates, but there is no doubt that they will be vertebrates. There will always be new organisms, but there is no doubt that they will be organisms.
Evolution doesn't predict that dogs will not be dogs, any more than it predicts that a mammal will give birth to something not a mammal. Rather it predicts that the classification structures we invent to group organisms will become larger over time, and that we'll have to invent new subclasses. That's what an expanding, hierarcheal structure means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by xevolutionist, posted 01-25-2005 7:31 PM xevolutionist has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 308 of 310 (180620)
01-25-2005 9:54 PM


Past 300 messages - About time to close this one down
Maybe someone needs to determine what the current topic theme is, and propose a new topic, including a title that means a little more.
Adminnemooseus

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 309 of 310 (180621)
01-25-2005 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by xevolutionist
01-25-2005 7:31 PM


Re: define your limits - with references
No new information is gained by mutations, the information present is corrupted.
Weren't you in this discussion with me on another board, X? If so, HI!
Didn't I ask about hemoglobin C over there? The one that gives African kids 93% resistance to malaria with mild-to-no side effects?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by xevolutionist, posted 01-25-2005 7:31 PM xevolutionist has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 310 of 310 (180659)
01-25-2005 11:45 PM


Closing this sucker down...
it's reached the witching time, 300+ posts.
If anyone has more to add please start a continuation thread in the Proposed New Topics.
Thanks to all who participated.

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