the evolution of clothes?

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hence the caveat on the hippo in my list

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Oops I missed it.

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if running were the criteria then cheatahs would have significantly less fur eh?

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No. Just becuase an adaptation would be beneficial if it happened does not imply it must necessarily happen or have happened.counter-point: hippos, elephants, rhino's and humans are largely monochrome, having little or no fur. Hunting cats have patterned 'stealth-fur' despite being pounce or chase predators. Swings and roundabouts.

Graculus: Thank you for your interesting retorts if not fully informative replies to my questions.Let's say for the moment that I accept each of your arguments regarding H. Erectus clothing with regard to whenever it originated and in relationship to survival in Siberian climatic conditions of whatever time era ...Now, about SEA TRAVEL ...In the last sentence of Your Post #43, you indicate that Homo Erectus engaged in "ocean travel" 350KYA. Do you mean by means other than accidental mobilization via flotsom? Are you saying there is evidence of watercraft 350K BP? Or are you claiming OCEANIC (as opposed to trans-gulf, trans-estuarian, or trans-ice sheet or ice berg-hopping) travel?More enlightenment please!Regards, Abshalom

ever shaved a spotted animal? the coloration can be on the skin as well

Yeah, my black and white Shih Tsu has corresponding pink and grey skin; so, what's the point?

That the presence of {fur\hair} is not critical to a camouflaged appearance.added by edit:humans are the only 'hairless' apes we were talking about other 'hairless' animals as a way of considering other causes for this feature. the others listed are all much larger body mass, which could indicate a correlation with {heat\cool} control, but there are other hirsuit animals in between that also generate extra heat by running down prey.it may be that early humans took this to an extreme when they learned to "walk down" prey: keeping on the trail until the animal exausts itself. it may be that humans found this niche because they could not run down the prey nor approach it easily in a stealth mode. thus this behavior may have driven evolution of less hair as those better able to do it were better able to survive. problem here are the migratory animals, migrating great distances with little food intake if any.This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-07-2005 15:12 AM

Abshalom: "In the last sentence of Your Post #43, you indicate that Homo Erectus engaged in "ocean travel" 350KYA. Do you mean by means other than accidental mobilization via flotsom? Are you saying there is evidence of watercraft 350K BP? Or are you claiming OCEANIC (as opposed to trans-gulf, trans-estuarian, or trans-ice sheet or ice berg-hopping) travel?"840 KYA, colonization of Flores. Three deep water crossings, the narrowest 19 km wide, and those are the ideal conditions. We don't know if the sea level was that low when the crossing was made. Those were probably the ancestors of H floriensis.And are you claiming that berg hopping and ice sheet travel would be possible without clothing? Shoes and warm socks would be a minimum requirement.

Graculus:You ask me if I am "claiming that berg hopping and ice sheet travel would be possible without clothing?" And then you ask whether "shoes and warm socks would be a minimum requirement."I preceded my question regarding your proof of oceanic travel circa 350KYA with a caveat that I was temporarily accepting your supposition that H. Erectus had rudimentary clothing that facilitated migration into frigid regions; note: "Let's say for the moment that I accept each of your arguments regarding H. Erectus clothing with regard to whenever it originated and in relationship to survival in Siberian climatic conditions of whatever time era ...Now, about SEA TRAVEL ..."I would still appreciate evidence more than supposition; however, now that I have temporarily set aside our clothing date argument, your're suddenly taking me all the way back to 840KYA with the "colonization of Flores" via "deep water crossings." Do you mean Flores, Guatemala? Help me out here with a link to the information to which you are referring.I truly want to know about ancient hominids' ability to colonize the globe, and would like information to substantiate extremely ancient deep water navigation. I will search online for other "Floreses" while I await any information you are willing to provide.Regards, AbshalomThis message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-08-2005 09:41 AM

Graculus:Okay, excuse my temporary ignorance! I did a quickie research on Flores Man, which I had seen written up in the news recently but had totally forgotten about, and found the information to which you are referring: http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news123.htmOther articles on the Internet indicate that Flores Man skeletons are dating about 95K to 18K BP. The stone tools to which you and the above noted article refer are dated 840K BP using fission-track dating of volcanic rock within which the tools are said to have been encased.There is still some controversy regarding fission-tracked dates of porous rock exposed to excessive water in tropical environments; however, this information is very interesting especially considering the diminutive size of Flores Man (and his brain) to begin with.Thanks for the tip, and I will continue to research and consider this information with regard to extremely ancient sea travel.Regards, Abshalom

Abshalom: Flores island, Indonesia... the place where they recently dug up the new "hobbit" hominids, H floriensis. Oldawan tools definitely dated to 840 KYA.It's pretty certain that by late erctus we had clothes, it would be odd if we didn't, given everything else that we had.http://home.entouch.net/dmd/chron.htm is a rough overview of the history of human technology. It needs updating and not everything is unchallenged, but it'll give you an idea of how far back some of this stuff goes.

also see
EvC Forum: Homo floresiensisfor a forum thread on this discovery.

Abshalom:"The stone tools to which you and the above noted article refer are dated 840K BP using fission-track dating of volcanic rock within which the tools are said to have been encased."Uh, they were dated with stratigraphy, paleomagnetism, and fission track dating as well. All are in agreement. And there is more than one site.

Graculus:Thank you for your help by leading me to this information. May I suggest something?When you find a site online that contains pertinent information, highlight the site's Web address in the "address" window in the top tool bar, left click on "Edit," then left click "copy" to capture the site's address.Then when back at the EvC topic reply window, left click to access "paste," and right click to paste the captured Web address into your reply. Then we can all enjoy the sites you say are out there waiting for our enlightenment.And there is a thread called "argh ... quote boxes" in the "Practice Makes Perfect" forum where the Administrators are teaching old computer-illiterate farts like me how to use technology to make our posts look all slick and professional like the other proficients at EvC. (As you can see, I am a retarded student at this time, and even have to edit such a simple response at this one.)Regards, AbshalomThis message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-09-2005 11:49 AM

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Originally posted by Abshalom:

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I'm lazy, given to typos, and thoroughly spoiled by frequenting boards that provide my html-challenged butt with buttons to perform those functions. However, I will strive to use quote blocks and hyperlinks in future. I'm actually computer literate, I have just never bothered with *tml.

Graculus, Your description fits you and me both.Anyway, all I am asking for is links to the information you cite so that I can read it for myself.Thanks again for the guidance. And if there are other forums that might be interesting, please forward that info too.Regards, Abshalom

on the links -- you don't need to worry about making them work, that is automatic. the only time you need to fuss with them is when they are long (usually a google result will show an extra long url because it has the link through the google search site), and admin usually takes care of those.