A question for believers - why the Bible?

I'm gonna have some fun with this. I'm not a Christian, but I'd wager I can respond to this inquiry along with the best of them.The Bible is God's word because:- It is the oldest book known to man.
- It has statistically improbable numerical patterns throughout it that testify to it's divine origins (Bible Numerics/Bible Codes)
- It has scientific insights that could not have been known to man at the time (food hygiene, circulation of weather, the earth being a sphere, importance of blood to life, number of stars in the sky, etc.)
- It is full of fulfilled prophecy.
- It contains the best lessons and rules for living a complete moral life.
- The Son of God confirmed it's authority.
- Despite the fact that it is made up of many books written by many authors of hundreds of years, in is internally consistent and inerrant.
- It contains the only truly accurate account of creation of the universe and life.How am I doing? That's eight straight lies in a row. That's is much as I can muster without feeling compelled to pluck out my own tongue.This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 12-23-2004 12:01 AM

asciikerr wrote: Most Christians are the last people you would want to talk to about "truth". They live in a delusion and negligently or deliberately propagate mistruths, that they themselves could dispell if they bothered to educate themselves.You'll find most geniune attempts at truths in science books which attempt to use the most successful and tested knowledge gathering technique ever known to man. You'll find attempts at philosophical truths in religious texts like the Bible, spread amongst demonstratble falsities like world wide floods, dragons, witches and people returning from the dead.The Bible includes one of the many mythical creation stories, and not a particularly impressive one, and one that has to be taken on faith because it has no support in science. It's description of why things are has no explantory value and restrained the advance of science and modern society for the hundreds of years known as the Dark Ages.It contains an oppressive and impossible to apply description of how to live life, that in many cases of application leads to existences of unjustified guilt, intellectual bankruptcy, and false and unfulfilled hopes. It also perscribes a method of intolerance towards others that has lead to countless wars, death and agony of humans throughout the history of the Christian church.The Bible includes a plethora of absurd and inapplicable solutions for real world situations, most of which are understandably horribly obsolete. It also includes a formulae for churches to use to exploit your hard earned wealth, time and labor, which despite optimistic claims, ends in the inevitable reality of the same cold dark grave for theist and atheist alike.From the demonstrably false myth of Genesis, with it's crazy story of a petty God that puts a man to a test he knows he will fail and then condemns his innocent offspring for all eternity, to the ravings of Revelation desbribing an end-time that Christians have been waiting for for two thousands years, and will never come (and use as an excuse to disregard larger environmental and ethical issues). The empty promise of redemption from something we haven't done, for a reward that we will never get, and everything else in between is by the Christian church to exploit it's followers and satiate their inability to accept reality.Above all, it contains a inconsistent and changing account of reality and morality, and a continuingly obsolete understanding of the universe and our place in it. An adult fairy tale, but with often tragic real world consequences for the mental, physical and financial health of those who fall for it.A lengthy, problematic, often horrifying and only marginally in intriguing read that would be of mild amusement if it hadn't played such a terrible role in human history; the Bible can be thrown on the heap of alike ancient mythology.Making broad, sweeping generalisations is fun.

Hi asciikerr, I am up for this debate, but you have caught me at the 11th hour.It's 4.45pm Queensland, Australia, Christmyth eve. I knock off work in 15 minutes and commence a short, but blissful and well earned vacation in Australia's tropical haven.I'll give you a tit-bit to demolish in my abscence, and have a look where you are at when I return in five days.Umm, let's see, flipping through the pages, so much silliness: let's try Deuteronomy:23:1 You can't go to church if your tecticles are damaged or your penis cut off. Yea that makes sense.22:5 Women can't wear men's clothing. Hmm, sound fashion advice for today.25:5-10 If a man dies without having a child, his brother should snog his wife. if he refuses she should loosen his shoe and spit on him. Something in that for everyone.Gotta run. Happy Pagan holidays!

asciikerr wrote: You claimed that the Bible is full of "sound Biblical solutions for real-world situations". With two minutes to spare, I quoted three Biblical solutions that are inapplicable to real world situations and are absurd.Can you tell me any situation where those three quotes are sound? Ok. Let's try these real world situations:1) The space shuttle Columbia had suspected heat tile damage after a chunk of ice broke off and struck the wing leading edge on lift-off. Given the technology and resouces available to the NASA and the shuttle crew, use the Bible to provide a practical solution for this situation.Quote Bible verses in support of your answer.2) My neice developed epilepsy (or she is possessed by demons: it's kinda hard to tell) after an injury to her head. Use the Bible to explain to her why she developed this injury and what medical options are available to her to help alleviate or cure her condition.Quote Bible verses in support of your answer.3) I do a lot of open water swimming, as a part of my triathlon training. For the first time ever, I was chased out of the water by a shark while swimming 100m offshore on the Gold Coast. I still wish to do long open water swims: so what can I do to eliminate the chance of shark attack while swimming alone, well of shore?Quote Bible verses in support of your answer.4) My neighbours daughters are avid fans of the Charmed television series, and I suspect would-be witches. While it is probably only a harmless phase of adolescent make-believe, can the Bible suggest a way that their parents can help these kids develop critical thinking techniques as adults that will make them resilient to the scams, and flim flam of modern day new-agism and religions?Why should they be allowed to live?Quote Bible verses in support of your answer.5) My girlfriend is bi-sexual and I have no issue with her having girlfriends of her own. This has many benefits for our relationsip: it allows her to fulfill another apsect of her sexuality, assists me coping with her high maintenance nature as she gets additional support outside our relationship, teaches her what it is like the date women from a "male perspective", we both get to perve on women (and I don't get in trouble), and, I get the, ahem, occasional tid-bit.She left her girlfriends behind when she moved from Brisbane to Sydney to be with me. Syndey is a much more conservative town. What is the best way for us to go about finding her another girlfriend in this new city?Quote Bible verses in support of your answer.6) A acquaintance of mine is involved in a cult. This cult has been documented to be very damaging to the financial, pyschological and in some cases physical health of it's adherents. Many of the tenets the cult espouses are demonstrably false as they conflict with modern scientific knowledge, our understanding of history and fail controlled tests.How can the Bible help me show my acquaintance that what he believes in is false and damaging?Quote Bible verses in support of your answer.7) What is the safest amount of boost that I can regularly use for my internally stock 2001 Subaru STI 2 litre, if I want to get at least 100,000kms out of the engine before re-building? The car is regularly driven hard.Quote Bible verses in support of your answer.

asciikerr wrote Excellent! I'm looking forward to it. Remember, it can't be absurd and must be applicable!

Hello asciikerr. Thanks for your lengthy response. I appreciate that your are trying to do what you see as right by your religion. I am fortunate in that my life is pretty dam good. Besides being sometimes bored with work, working through sports injuries and occasionally dealing with difficult people, my life as an atheist is well sorted, financially, emotionally and, dare I say it, spiritually. I am well placed to cope with "real problems" because I realise they arise merely out of cause and effect, unpredictable complexity and in complete compliance with the purposeless laws of physics in our universe. I don't labor over pointless rationalisations over the input of imaginary deities and whether I have appeased them or not. If something "bad" happens I try to do what I can to mitigate it's effects and avoid it in the future, but also acknowledge that some things just happen and are outside our sphere of influence (eg: natural disasters).Responses to your Q+A:1) Challenger disaster.asciikerr responded: And they would have still burned up. I'd wager that some of them may have prayed and received the usual success rate that theists achieve when praying.The liquid rocket fuel of the shuttle boosters is way below freezing, and this created the ice which damaged the wing during take off. Your Bible quote about winter is not applicable.It was a long shot expecting a 2000 year old religious text written by bronze age goat herders to provide much insight into a tragic present day technological disaster. No supernatural or profound insight provided.I had hoped for an amusing Tower of Babel reference!2) Epilepsy The Bible isn't real good on medicine. The Biblical cause of epilepsy is "demons" and the cure exorcisism. In this case, I actually provided you with the cause of the epilepsy: an accidental blow to the head. Claiming that someone's sin caused the condition has no explantory value whatsoever. Unfortunately we don't have your mythical Messiah walking around healing people or a God providing testable and documentable healing. Modern medicine based on science is the only hope for successful diagnosis and treatment.I refer you to James Randi's "The Faith Healers' for research on the dismal phenomenom of US faith healers.Or likewise my eldest sibling's devoutly fundamentalist family provides me with great faith healing data: tragically, one of my nephews is a insulin dependent diabetic since the age of 10, another spent this very Christmas is hospital having his appendix removed. My sister-in-law suffered from severe post natal depression for years. The list is much longer, but in their case modern medicine has sustained two of their lives, and faith healing provided nothing.3) Risk of shark attack I understand the message of Matt 10:28. It amazes me actually how paranoid Christians actually are of death: most try to live very safely and preserve their lives using all means provided by modern science. Seems a bit strange when their is a supposed enternity of heaven awaiting: it is almost like than don't really believe or trust their own message.Muslim fundamentalist nutcases demonstrate their conviction much more convincingly, readily and regularly!As an atheist I work to preserve my healthy life, but do not fear the inevitability of oblivion for my mortal consciousness. If I did I wouldn't swim with the friggin' sharks now, would I?Proverbs 27:12 is good sensible advice, but I do not desire to closet myself away from all danger. There are too many fun dangerous experiences to be had in life!I was hoping for some insight into the predatory habits of the shark, but the Bible isn't real good on biology, is it?4) Witches Not suprisingly the Bible provides us with little of value on this subject, and instead provides us with some scary incorrect stuff. In this modern day and age where we no longer believe in nonsense like "the evil eye", we realise that witches don't actually exist and magic and sorcery are fictional. Would-be witches are merely playing make believe and engaging in relatively harmless fantasy. Such make-believe is not evil and is certainly a lot less evil than the evil that has often been embodied in religions throughout history. It is horrifying to suggest that such individuals (or others that aren't even pretending to be witches) should be subject to the sort of punshment that the Christian church once handed out in compliance with absurd and inapplicable Biblical nonsense.The Bible cannot provide consistent and good advice about critical thinking because such thinking is contrary to the mindset required for religious belief. Indeed, the very first chapter starts off by telling us how we shouldn't eat from the tree of knowledge.You also failed to explain why, as a Christian, witches should now be suffered to live in contravention of the Bible.5) Same sex relationships, de-facto relationships. Thanks for suggesting that my partner seek harlots and prostitutes. She actually has a preference for young well spoken and educated professional women. She does seek a relationship afterall. I didn't think the Bible would have much insight about modern/unconventional relationships, but then at least I avoided what I figured was going to be the unavoidable plethora of Biblical quotes from you about fornication and same sex relationships.6) Cults This was going to be a pickle for you, given that the Bible can be a great tool for creating a cult. It provides a few vague and non-specific warnings about avoiding false prophets, but otherwise completely fails to protect it's believers from cult abuse.You are right though: even though you can demonstrate that just about all cultist beliefs are false through scientific testing of the material claims, free will (as you label it) causes them to follow blindly.How does Luke 15:11-31 assist with avoiding false prophets? Heb 13:5? A cultist already believes that they are on the right path to God: how does Heb 13:5 assist?7) Modern technology/transport Does a Christian honestly have to pray to God for answers about turbo-charged engines... !I appreciate your lengthy and detailed response, asciikerr, but I suspect that you have referred to the same God of knowledge available to me. We both call this "God", the Internet!You have demonstrated how modern knowledge has supplanted the ancient and marginally intruiging insights of bronze age philosophers. Whilst I had a little fun, I did take this opportunity very seriously. The Bible provides some reasonably sensible, and mostly obvious insights for pleasant living but it also includes a stack of obsolete nonsense and obviously excludes much stuff necessary for the modern age. This much has been demonstrated above.What has the wisdom of men given us? Christianity had alomst 2000 years at the reigns of European society, but since it's fall from power we have:- Modern medicine and lower infant mortality/greater life expectency etc
- Space travel and knowledge of solar system and universe beyond.
- Modern transport.
- Telecommunications.
- Modern contruction.
- Computers and the Internet (which you have to use just to answer questions about your "supernatural book")
- Understanding of the natural universe: physics, chemistry, biology, earth sciences, natural history.etc etc.I challenge you to spend one entire day relying on nothing but the wisdom your find in the Bible: you cannot live in a modern house made of modern constructions materials/methods, can't wear modern fibres, can't eat any foods derived from modern agricultural techniques, can't use electricity, can only walk or ride animals, can't use water from a tap (except where sourced from a Roman or Greek aqueduct!), can't use any phone/tv/computer, cannot enter modern buildings cross modern bridges, and can't use medical aid. Sounds like the Amish!This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 01-04-2005 00:20 AM

Purpledawn wrote: Thanks for your input, Purple. I would have figured as much.It's always bewildered me how black and white examples of the failure of prayer often do not compromise the faith of those involved. This is mostly because of the bullshit coverall church assessment of prayer response: "The answer will be Yes, No or Later", which basically covers every contigent from a fairly useless, unpredictable and indifferent Christian God, to no God/randomn chance, to Pretty Pick Pixies. It evidences the fact the faith has very little to do with rationale thought and a lot to do with an emotive need.No disrespect intended to those who perished in this tragedy, or their families.

DrJones wrote: Oh ta. My bad. Am I right in that ice forms on the booster engines because of the fuel temp?

I'd imagine it would have been heart wrenching to have actually been there. Thanks for the clarification on the fuel/boosters.