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Author Topic:   Independent Historical Corroboration for Biblical Events
Me
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 212 (17387)
09-13-2002 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by John
09-12-2002 2:01 PM


Sorry for the delay - I am finding that a contractor needs to work on occasions! I will be rather busy for the next week.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:
[B]Originally posted by Me:
Though I can see that these sites indicate that writing was common in the Egyptian culture, I can see no references to back this assertion up.
Oh sure... you want evidence! Geez!
I'll have to do some more research. [/quote]
[/b]
Just a ref to the 'shoping-list' would be appreciated, if you can find one. The use of writing in a mundane manner like that would go a long way towards revising my views of Egyptian script. It is not a tribute list for an official, is it?
quote:
Ok. Preservation being an issue. What I am not convinced of though is that later cultures recorded more information than did the ancient Egyptians who seemed to have been quite obsessive about record keeping. In other words, does Rome or Greece supply the level of 'common' writing that you propose? Do the later Islamic cultures display this?

It is so hard to extract what information on ancient cultures is really available from the reports we get, filtered through the press. There are at least four stages such information seems to go through:
unearthing the raw data
the archeologists assembly of this into a paper
the archaeologists, or associated persons, interpretation into a theory
the journalists alteration of this into a story
the first two of these stages depend strongly on the raw data - the latter two seem to depend more on the imagination! I have tried on occasions to go back to original paper or raw data, and found that in many cases the data was too sparse to support the theory. It agreed with it, but there are limits to what you can prove with a single fragment. What you often get is the archeologists beliefs - they may be accurate, we may want to believe them, but we are not talking about proof here.
As you say, preservation is a critical issue. Nontheless, I think I see a change in 'type' of writing after the Greeks, which I place at about 200BC. Egyptians certainly wrote well before this time, but almost all of this impresses me as a sort of inward-looking specialist technical kind of work. There were astronomical records kept for religious purposes, and tribute/tax/purchase lists, but not a lot else. There were messages to officials, few of which seem to exist, and a number of other fragments and stories. There are some religious dialogues and aide-memoires, like the Book of the Dead. Because I think that it was used in this limited way, I suspect that the total amount of writing was not great, and the archaeologists are building a lot on a little.
The classics are probably the Eloquent Peasant and the Kety piece, both of which read to me like scribes teaching exercises. I am often suprised, as I said, by the wealth of interpretation which is placed on these few pieces. It is like writing about our civilisation from 0 to 2000 AD on the strength of a few items.
My belief is that writing before the Greeks was a technical specialism used in a very narrow way, and not a method of conveying general information. It could do this, of course, and archeologists will often read a lot into a phrase, as I have indicated above. Later Greek and Roman work, by contrast, was often written intentionally for posterity, and describes all manner of things. We get Herodotus, the first historian, poets, and the lot!
All of this is based on what little Egyptian I have struggled through. I know nothing about corresponding Sumarian and Babylonian cultures written works, and less about the Indus valley and Yellow River valley cultures! So I am simply working on the assumption that they are similar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by John, posted 09-12-2002 2:01 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by John, posted 09-18-2002 3:39 PM Me has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 212 (17717)
09-18-2002 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Me
09-13-2002 3:13 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Me:
Sorry for the delay - I am finding that a contractor needs to work on occasions! I will be rather busy for the next week.
Same here. Contractor are you? Moi aussi.
quote:
Just a ref to the 'shoping-list' would be appreciated, if you can find one.
I can't find the shopping list. However, I did find a couple of things that may interest you.
Internet History Sourcebooks
Internet History Sourcebooks
quote:
The use of writing in a mundane manner like that would go a long way towards revising my views of Egyptian script. It is not a tribute list for an official, is it?
As I remember it, it was a list found in the home/workplace of an artisan who probably worked on one of the pyramid projects. I can't remember which one.
quote:
the first two of these stages depend strongly on the raw data - the latter two seem to depend more on the imagination! I have tried on occasions to go back to original paper or raw data, and found that in many cases the data was too sparse to support the theory. It agreed with it, but there are limits to what you can prove with a single fragment. What you often get is the archeologists beliefs - they may be accurate, we may want to believe them, but we are not talking about proof here.
Can't argue with that. The field is cursed with very fragmentary data.
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Me, posted 09-13-2002 3:13 PM Me has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by nos482, posted 09-18-2002 4:05 PM John has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 212 (17720)
09-18-2002 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by John
09-18-2002 3:39 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by Me:
Sorry for the delay - I am finding that a contractor needs to work on occasions! I will be rather busy for the next week.
Same here. Contractor are you? Moi aussi.
quote:
Just a ref to the 'shoping-list' would be appreciated, if you can find one.
I can't find the shopping list. However, I did find a couple of things that may interest you.
Internet History Sourcebooks
Internet History Sourcebooks
quote:
The use of writing in a mundane manner like that would go a long way towards revising my views of Egyptian script. It is not a tribute list for an official, is it?
As I remember it, it was a list found in the home/workplace of an artisan who probably worked on one of the pyramid projects. I can't remember which one.
quote:
the first two of these stages depend strongly on the raw data - the latter two seem to depend more on the imagination! I have tried on occasions to go back to original paper or raw data, and found that in many cases the data was too sparse to support the theory. It agreed with it, but there are limits to what you can prove with a single fragment. What you often get is the archeologists beliefs - they may be accurate, we may want to believe them, but we are not talking about proof here.
Can't argue with that. The field is cursed with very fragmentary data.

Yes, what I've seen of the Dead Sea Scrolls released for public viewing have mainly been just fragments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by John, posted 09-18-2002 3:39 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by John, posted 09-20-2002 12:38 PM nos482 has not replied
 Message 96 by RedVento, posted 09-20-2002 12:51 PM nos482 has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 212 (17884)
09-20-2002 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by nos482
09-18-2002 4:05 PM


quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
Yes, what I've seen of the Dead Sea Scrolls released for public viewing have mainly been just fragments.
The scrolls themselves are fragmentary, yes. But I believe that a substantial amount-- maybe 40%-- has been published. I don't know of any online sources for the texts.
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by nos482, posted 09-18-2002 4:05 PM nos482 has not replied

  
RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 212 (17888)
09-20-2002 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by nos482
09-18-2002 4:05 PM


The problem with the Dead Sea Scrolls is that after independant translators released some of the original translations the RCC had to revise some of its stances partially resulting in Vatican 2. Since then the Vatican has obtained exlusive rights to the scrolls and only allows church translators to review and translate them. Leading to a very suspicious translations that cannot be verified by 3rd parties.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by nos482, posted 09-18-2002 4:05 PM nos482 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Mister Pamboli, posted 09-20-2002 1:11 PM RedVento has not replied

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7577 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 97 of 212 (17892)
09-20-2002 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by RedVento
09-20-2002 12:51 PM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:
The problem with the Dead Sea Scrolls is that after independant translators released some of the original translations the RCC had to revise some of its stances partially resulting in Vatican 2. Since then the Vatican has obtained exlusive rights to the scrolls and only allows church translators to review and translate them. Leading to a very suspicious translations that cannot be verified by 3rd parties.
Rubbish! And malicious rubbish at that. The vatican has no exclusive right, and the scrolls are being published continually, in particualr through the Clarendon press series. And you do not need to rely on either translation or transcription - the scrolls are also being published in photographic form, so that all you need to is get yourself expert in early Hebrew language and palaeogrpahy. Difficult indeed, but not a barrier to verification by 3rd parties.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by RedVento, posted 09-20-2002 12:51 PM RedVento has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-05-2002 8:29 PM Mister Pamboli has not replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 212 (19144)
10-05-2002 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Mister Pamboli
09-20-2002 1:11 PM


That wa really funny about the Vatican being in control of the scrolls. Forget that.
http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/
Dead Sea -- Intro
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/toc.html
Do a search in google for "dead sea scrolls" for 134,000 hits. Take your pick. You'll find lots of official sites, scholarly ones, as well as the many obvious conspiracy and skeptic sites, but the fact of the matter is they are in Israel, some on display around the world, even displayed in the Vatican, but not at all under control of the Vatican or anyone else. If their Bible is found distanced from the writings of the scrolls, they would be wise to edit their own texts.
Read up on it before so damaging your credibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Mister Pamboli, posted 09-20-2002 1:11 PM Mister Pamboli has not replied

  
Doctor Robert
Junior Member (Idle past 7457 days)
Posts: 7
From: USA all the way
Joined: 10-28-2003


Message 99 of 212 (63097)
10-28-2003 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peter
02-11-2002 10:27 AM


Bible facts?
Well it may not be archaeological but what does the Bible prove? It shows us that Psalms 22 and 69 being preached by Jesus upon the cross and the events that took place that same time. Many mistakenly attribute what Christ said on the cross as a moment of doubt and pain but is far from the truth to those that read it. Did the Romans wake up that morning of Jesus' crucifixion and say "shall we fulfill the Hebrew Bible today?" I dont think so. The Psalms in question were written almost 1,000 years before Christ was born and played out EXACTLY as it was written. Does this villify or verify the Bible? Did the Romans decide to fulfill the Jews' prophecies by crucifying Jesus EXACTLY as quoted in Psalms 22 and 69? How they gambled for His robes? How they pierced Him? How they offered Him vinegar? How they people standing about Him "wagging their heads" and telling Him to come down if he be the Messiah? I dont think so. But that is prophesy more to your liking and request, YES there is archaeological information to support not only the Biblical events but also Biblical extremities. E. Raymond Capt books are great, E.W. Bullinger books supply even more. Recent archaeological digs have shown much, much more. Do a google search on biblical archaeology and see what you come up with. The city of Ar, Jerico, and Meggido. Egyptology, and much, much more. Did you know Hebrews came to America long before Colombus or even the vikings? Over 1,000 years before even the Vikings came the Pheonicians and Hebrews came to America and represent the "native" Americans of the U.S.A.
TOO MANY TUMBLEBUGS AT THIS SITE. Who knew? Should have guessed.
------------------
Cracked but not hacked
[This message has been edited by Doctor Robert, 10-29-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peter, posted 02-11-2002 10:27 AM Peter has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Brian, posted 10-28-2003 9:44 AM Doctor Robert has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 100 of 212 (63118)
10-28-2003 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Doctor Robert
10-28-2003 3:22 AM


Re: Bible facts?
Hi Doc
Well it may not be archaeological but what does the Bible prove?
That you can fool some of the people all of the time?
It shows us that Psalms 22 and 69 being preached by Jesus upon the cross and the events that took place that same time.
It does, I cannot see that myself, where precisely?
Many mistakenly attribute what Christ said on the cross as a moment of doubt and pain but is far from the truth to those that read it.
This sentence doesn’t really make sense, could you try rewording it?
Did the Romans wake up that morning of Jesus' crucifixion and say "shall we fulfill the Hebrew Bible today?" I dont think so.
Well since Jesus fulfilled nothing, they probably didn’t
The Psalms in question were written almost 1,000 years before Christ was born and played out EXACTLY as it was written.
How do you know they were written 1000 years before Jesus?
Does this villify or verify the Bible?
It verifies that after Jesus died, some unknown writers sat down with the Hebrew Bible and made up stories about Jesus to try and make him appear as if he was the Messiah. Their thinly veiled attempts are very simple to see, you just need to be a bit less subjective.
Did the Romans decide to fulfill the Jews' prophecies by crucifying Jesus EXACTLY as quoted in Psalms 22 and 69?
Except that it is nothing like what is in these psalms AND, how do you know the Romans did this?
How they gambled for His robes?
Evidence please.
How they pierced Him?
Evidence please.
How they offered Him vinegar?
this contradicts my Bible.
How they people standing about Him "wagging their heads" and telling Him to come down if he be the Messiah?
Evidence please.
I dont think so.
Yes you don’t seem to be very good at this thinking lark do you?
You do know that you are living in a world of circular reasoning?
It isn’t prophecy, it is circular reasoning, and redaction.
YES there is archaeological information to support not only the Biblical events but also Biblical extremities.
Well come on over to the ‘biblical archaeology' thread and post some evidence, your fellow Christians have been letting your side down over there.
E. Raymond Capt books are great, E.W. Bullinger books supply even more.
Well they are good for children to read I suppose.
Recent archaeological digs have shown much, much more.
Really, care to elaborate a little
Do a google search on biblical archaeology and see what you come up with.
Probably a list of ill-informed regurgitated nonsense from Christian websites, owned by people who have no archaeological training an even less common sense.
Why don’t you come to the biblical archaeology thread, you could learn a lot there.
The city of Ar, Jerico, and Meggido. Egyptology, and much, much more.
The first two cities you mentioned show destruction levels at vastly different times, in fact, Ai is probably the most well-known problem that ‘biblical archaeologists’ despise, there is no way to fit Ai into any reconstruction of the conquest. Jericho wasn’t even inhabited when he bible claims that there was an Exodus (both dates actually).
Did you know Hebrews came to America long before Colombus or even the vikings?
You bee visiting Mormon sites too?
Over 1,000 years before even the Vikings came the Pheonicians and Hebrews came to America and represent the "native" Americans of the U.S.A.
Evidence please.
Go to my web site and you will find some of these things there.
You are not a real doc are you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Doctor Robert, posted 10-28-2003 3:22 AM Doctor Robert has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Doctor Robert, posted 10-28-2003 4:44 PM Brian has replied
 Message 104 by Doctor Robert, posted 10-28-2003 4:52 PM Brian has not replied

  
Doctor Robert
Junior Member (Idle past 7457 days)
Posts: 7
From: USA all the way
Joined: 10-28-2003


Message 101 of 212 (63148)
10-28-2003 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Brian
10-28-2003 9:44 AM


Re: Bible facts?
Obviously if you spent more time studying instead of living indarknes of the con game that has plagued you and Christian mankind for 1,973 years you may have been able to have received this "proof" you have been seeking all your darkened life.
Only those foolish enough to want to destroy what the spiritual Biblical accounts have shown to many and have been hidden TO many such as yourself proves the exact point that God's word is exact. Some people (like yourself) are fooled into a false security of lies and misrepresentations. In fact and it is fact brian that science has not disqualified Biblical accounts but has proven them. Something you obviously do not comprehend. The logistics of pre-escatoligical advancments has shown that not only is the Bible correct in its assertions but more accurate than any reletive prophetic or inane philosiphies produced as a result of lies and said misrepresentation.
F.Y.I.
Jesus was repeating Psalms 22 while dying on the cross. He quoted it in front of Roman witnesses as well as Kenite ones. Since it was NOT Jews that crucified Him (something you probably didnt know), why then would they lie? In fact there is historical documentation both roman and jewish that do this exact thing. For your information they can be located in the United States Congressional Library. Something else I dare discern you do not know. The American Archaeological Institution in Washington D.C. can also help you out on these eye witness reports.
In Psalms 22 It is written 1,000 years before His birth and it is a fact whether you want to believe it or not shows you have no historical evidence your self and are in complete denial. We know this from found documentation both in America and in the area known as the Dead Sea these things are factual. Again I suggest you put down those false books written to dispel Biblical events that were only written for pocket money (called profit) in exchange for ignorant persons such as yourself aqnd to keep you ignorant to draw improper conclusions of what is a fact both historically and archeaologically whcih were done without profit. You see you have NO proof that it isnt. We both know that dont we?
All one has to do is read Psalms 22 and then read what Christ did say while upon the cross. Even at His death He was teaching but you wouldnt know that would you brian? In fact in Luke a doctor not a spiritualist or imaginable delusions or lies wrote and did actual historical research as a man of science and reported what he did in his book by his own name. You see Christ never had a moment of doubt in the garden nor hesitation to go to the cross for you. Something you inherantly wouldnt know either. Of course you would have to be a bit of a scholar and historian as well as a linguist or perhaps know something of the languages used and written. Luk_12:50 When Christ said; "But I have a baptism to be baptized with," means; His crucification, not by water but by spirit is why he said he rendered his spirit to the father before he died. "And how am I straitened till it shall be accomplished!" just means; He was anxious to do it. And how I am straitened (kai pwv sunexomai [no greek fonts here]). See this same vivid verb sunexomai in Luk_8:37; Act_18:5; Phi_1:23 where Paul uses it of his desire for death just as Jesus does here. The urge of the Cross is upon Jesus at the moment of these words. We catch a glimpse of the tremendous passion in his soul that drove him on.
Jesus fulfilled much of the old testament but of course you wouldnt know that brian would you since you refuse to study to shew thyself unto God a workman worthy of his praise. No you probably only want to worship your satan god and continue in his efforts to destroy. Like father like son?
Let's get you some fulfillment in your miserable darkened life. And people wonder why God allows this or that or doesnt hear someones prayer, total ignorance like this denies Him.
PROPHECIES FULFILLED IN JESUS
Prophecy
Isa_11:1
Isa_7:14
Mic_5:2
Dan_9:25
Description
PRE-EXISTENCE AND BIRTH
Fulfillment
Rev_22:16
Mat_1:18-23
Mat_2:1; Luk_2:1-7
Luk_3:1; Luk_21:20-22
Prophecy
Mal_3:1; Mal_4:5-6
Isa_3:1-4
Isa_11:2
Isa_61:1-3
Isa_53:3
Zec_9:9
Description
PUBLIC MINISTRY
Fulfillment
Luk_1:13-17
Mat_3:1-3; Mat_11:10-13
Mat_3:16
Luk_4:16-21
Mar_3:6
Mat_21:1-11
Prophecy
Isa_53:4-8
Dan_9:26
Psa_34:20; Exo_12:46
Zec_13:7
Isa_53:9, Isa_53:12
Psa_22:7-8
Psa_22:18
Psa_22:1
Psa_16:10; Isa_53:10
Description
DEATH AND RESURRECTION
Fulfillment
Joh_19:18
2Co_5:21
Joh_19:33, Joh_19:36
Mat_26:31, Mat_26:56
Luk_23:32-33; Joh_19:39
Mat_27:39-43
Mat_27:35; Joh_19:23-24
Mat_27:46; Mar_15:34
Mat_1:1-6; Act_2:22-32
Prophecy
Psa_110:1, Psa_110:4
Description
PRESENT MINISTRY
Fulfillment
Heb_5:1-10
The reason why one knows Psalms 22 and 69 were written almost 1,000 years before Christ is because David wrote them. Guess when he lived if you can brian? Their births are recorded in the Roman legislature documentation for taxes that were demaned of every Hebrew the Romans had conqust over. DUH! Or are the Roman antagonitsts lying too? You see also in Egypt there are records by Pharoah's security forces of births and deaths. In fact the very kenites that murdered Christ on the cross to fulfill yet another part of prophecy today believes and has recordation of these events. Many today are called Islam. Now if you know anyting about Islam you know they care not for the Jews nor Christianity but of course in your small unknowledable mind you wouldnt be up on current events that started about 636 A.D. or possibly you never heard of Mohamad? Oh thats right, there is no "proof" is there that he existed in your incompetant mental fradualties. Some people are just plain lazy. Flip flops on a matress as God calls you, never getting anywhere.
Letters to Tiberius Caeser by one Pontius Pilate. Maybe you should read them brian and wake up to reality. Christianity is NOT a religion it IS a reality. LETTERS OF HEROD AND PILATE,
CONNECTING ROMAN HISTORY with THE Death OF CHRIST AT
JERUSALEM.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Brian, posted 10-28-2003 9:44 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Doctor Robert, posted 10-28-2003 4:47 PM Doctor Robert has replied
 Message 105 by Doctor Robert, posted 10-28-2003 4:54 PM Doctor Robert has not replied
 Message 108 by PaulK, posted 10-28-2003 5:23 PM Doctor Robert has replied
 Message 109 by AdminAsgara, posted 10-28-2003 8:29 PM Doctor Robert has not replied
 Message 128 by Brian, posted 10-29-2003 10:18 AM Doctor Robert has not replied

  
Doctor Robert
Junior Member (Idle past 7457 days)
Posts: 7
From: USA all the way
Joined: 10-28-2003


Message 102 of 212 (63149)
10-28-2003 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Doctor Robert
10-28-2003 4:44 PM


Re: Bible facts? #2
JUST NOT ENOUGH SPACE FOR KNOWLEDGE
CONNECTING ROMAN HISTORY with THE Death OF CHRIST AT
JERUSALEM.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Doctor Robert, posted 10-28-2003 4:44 PM Doctor Robert has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Doctor Robert, posted 10-28-2003 4:50 PM Doctor Robert has not replied

  
Doctor Robert
Junior Member (Idle past 7457 days)
Posts: 7
From: USA all the way
Joined: 10-28-2003


Message 103 of 212 (63150)
10-28-2003 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Doctor Robert
10-28-2003 4:47 PM


Re: Bible facts? #2
CONNECTING ROMAN HISTORY with THE Death OF CHRIST AT
JERUSALEM.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Doctor Robert, posted 10-28-2003 4:47 PM Doctor Robert has not replied

  
Doctor Robert
Junior Member (Idle past 7457 days)
Posts: 7
From: USA all the way
Joined: 10-28-2003


Message 104 of 212 (63151)
10-28-2003 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Brian
10-28-2003 9:44 AM


Re: Bible facts?
CONNECTING ROMAN HISTORY with THE Death OF CHRIST AT
JERUSALEM.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Brian, posted 10-28-2003 9:44 AM Brian has not replied

  
Doctor Robert
Junior Member (Idle past 7457 days)
Posts: 7
From: USA all the way
Joined: 10-28-2003


Message 105 of 212 (63152)
10-28-2003 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Doctor Robert
10-28-2003 4:44 PM


Re: Bible facts?
Well not enough space I guess to post all the knowledge guess you will have to remain in the dark brian. You are not really a Christian are you Brian?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Doctor Robert, posted 10-28-2003 4:44 PM Doctor Robert has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Brian, posted 10-28-2003 5:19 PM Doctor Robert has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 106 of 212 (63156)
10-28-2003 5:16 PM


No you probably only want to worship your satan god and continue in his efforts to destroy.
Doc, do you even know Brian?
I thought not.
Moderators, I think this cat is out of line.......

  
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