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Author Topic:   Greetings from the Sandbox.
Silent H
Member (Idle past 6068 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 32 of 42 (172687)
01-01-2005 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hangdawg13
12-31-2004 8:47 PM


These people were villified for cruelty and murder, not a tough personality and a sense of humor about death.
Oh that is true. I did not mean to say it was just their iconography we objected to. But it was that iconography and stated attitude toward death which was used to point out what an opposing culture that was. Is this not true?
You obviously have no grasp of what it is like to be a soldier. You should note that one way to keep morale and courage high is to have a sense of humor about it all... You claim your are not anti-military yet you have no idea what a military is.
Lies. You have no idea who I am, or what experiences I have been through. You also have no idea of the experiences of my family and friends. I already said I understood gallows humor. Very coarse gallows humor and hubris about killing is not good for maintaining orderly and civilized troops. While it happens it should not be allowed to manifest so glibly in every day life.
On top of that I would expect coarse humor and hubris from nonXians. People who claim to peace I would expect to act more seriously about the tragedy, even if not guilty about it. It is a surprise to hear otherwise which is what set off my question. It certainly would not have flown well with all my Xian soldier relatives.
but even then he's not arrogantly coming in here guns'a'blazing telling you you're going to hell because you're an atheist evolutionist.
Oh, you missed him in another thread I see.
Being a soldier in a free nation protecting that free nation is an honorable occupation and is compatible with Christianity.
Who the hell are you arguing with???? I have already said this was true. It was the apparent pride and hubris regarding the killing which seemed wholly inconsistent. I mentioned the Amish only as an example that in war and self-defense not all Xians believe killing is right.
you call an American Christian soldier a thug and a hypocrite for having a casual sense of humor about his occupation. You're own self-righteousness clouds your thinking.
I maintain my position that if anyone other than an American Xian soldier had come in with the same statements and iconography, it would have been used against him.
As it stands as an American I do not like it because we are supposed to be winning hearts and minds at this point and callousness is not needed. It is counterproductive. And as I said my Xian relatives would certainly have been shocked.
You are making death, which comes to us all, out to be a horrid taboo which must be feared and hated. I guess that may be a natural consequence of being an atheist. I am amazed at how a person's worldview can so differentiate two people's reading of a harmless post..
How does thinking someone on our side should have some compassion and respect for the death going on around have anything to do with making death taboo? Or wondering at the apparent inconsistency of his position, which did not seem peaceloving at all?
But PKKB... sex comes to all of us, why do you guys make it out to be such a taboo?
I suggest you read my first post again, it was not as negative as you are making it out to be.
You sound like my delicate grandmother. Perhaps, your misunderstanding comes from a lack of experience with manhood and competition in general? I wonder, did you ever play football or hockey or wrestle or any other sport where aggressiveness matters?
You somehow missed the fact that I am an equivalent blackbelt (we used a traditional system without belts) in a martial art I guess. Personally I like the more aggresive sports as well. You sound like someone who is having a maturity crisis. Why does care and compassion equal weakness to you?
Oh by the way, nice argument on why it is esprit de corps. Very convincing.
I love to blow stuff up! I even planned to go into the Marine Corps and kill people. And I kinda sadistically enjoy seeing you get your prissy liberal panties in a twist when I say that. Does that affect my ability to show love and compassion to others? Absolutely not! However, the continuation of this particular debate with you may do so...
Blowing things up and killing people is a requirement of duty. If it is a gratifying part of the job, I wouldn't want you in the service. Maturity and compassion is what separates my good guys from my bad guys. Go to the thread I have opened on that topic and voice your opinion.
By the way my panties aren't in a twist, but I am suprised yours are not given all the position bending going on. I guess this just goes to show what a bunch of BS all that absolute morality talk is.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Hangdawg13, posted 12-31-2004 8:47 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 6068 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 33 of 42 (172688)
01-01-2005 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
01-01-2005 4:07 AM


Re: Setting the record straight
Yes let us "set the record straight".
Holmes is:
1) pro military
2) reluctant to war and so generally pacifist, but believes there will never be a utopia and as such war is sometimes necessary and service is honorable.
3) pro death penalty
4) firmly for the war in afghanistan
5) against the war in Iraq because it was not useful and diverted resources, but did not cry over Hussein as he himself has done stuff like this. I hope something good will come out of his removal.
6) And for all the candyasses in the crowd I enjoy martial arts and violent sports (though not as a spectator).
Nothing in your lecture reflected my outlook and what I stated in this thread or at EvC in general.
Almost my entire point related to attitude toward service and duty and those under your care. Get a grip, go back and reread. Then go to my thread on standards for soldiers and make comments.
What would YOU do if YOU were the one in charge? How would YOU handle Iraq? Send in the Peace Corp?
I think I have already made my points on this. I would never have invaded Iraq at that time or as ill planned as had been done. Even staunch supporters are now admitting it was botched and illtimed.
That said, given that it has happened and we don't have time machines, we need to have very strong military support. We do all have an investment in making sure Bush's collosal blunder turns out right.
Now that I have firmly stated I am not for removing troops immediately and have nothing against military service, can you address my actual position? What does an appreciation for service and being a good soldier (xian or otherwise) have to do with prodeath attitudes and iconography as well as glib slander?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 01-01-2005 4:07 AM Phat has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 6068 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 34 of 42 (172691)
01-01-2005 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tal
01-01-2005 2:05 AM


*Looks at the worms wriggle from the opened can*
Heheheh... actually I think I was the one that opened it. One would think you were a wilting flower with all of the people clamouring erroneously to your defense (erroneous in that they never got my position right).
I apologize for bringing up the directly EvC related topic as it could have waited for other forums. I just got very curious and I did have my hackles up from something else.
Let me make it clear that I do not have anything against the military and though I firmly opposed the Iraq war (as compared to Afghanistan) I have nothing against those that served in it or think something cannot be made of that service.
My problem is what appeared to be a glib and insensitive attitude to your position and your duties. Part of it was as a US citizen, in that I do not view such attitudes as proper for what we are supposed to be getting across. You may not have meant it or realized it, but it came off that way. Then there was a general confusion regarding how a Xian can hold such a glib and hubristic attitude toward position and duty. It certainly did not correspond to the peace loving Xian soldiers I have known. You came off as callous as those which we are calling an enemy.
But what I can do is look at inconsistancies in the method and draw conclusions. Drawing my own conclusion based on all sides of an argument is how I come to "believe" in something or other, whether its faith or science.
Okay, we can wait for the proper forum for this. I just don't see how that can be held consistently. You have already conflated evolution with carbon dating (which is a pretty big error) and as it stands I doubt you were having issues with the WMD teams and those examining mass graves. They use similar methods.
You assume much. I am not a war junkie. I haven't been on a mission for the last month, and that suits me just fine. You have chosen to believe that I run out into downtown Baghdad and start shooting whomever, because hey, I have the rounds and need the target practice. You jumped to a wrong conclusion.
You have made the assumption, not me. I told you what attitude I was seeing displayed and it seemed inconsistent and so I was asking for clarification. I did not even state that you were a war junkie. However you are glib and proud of the parts of your duty which I would think should be the most tactful and sober.
Can you look at what you wrote from a different perspective and ask what a neutral person would make of that persona? It did not seem like the soldiers we are supposed to be fielding and it seemed inconsistent to the vision of a Xian soldier.
And make no mistake, while I love the Iraqi people that I've met (note alot of insurgents are not Iraqis) and my particular mission is to help rebuild their country and provide stability, I am fighting for Mr./Mrs. US citizen that would like to be able to board a plane without fear of it being highjacked and run into a building.
No, this is untrue and you do not need to believe this fallacy in order to have confidence in your job. Perhaps news has not reached you guys (though another EvCer from Iraq did seem to know) but Iraq has nothing to do with mr and mrs US citizen. Iraq had no connection to 9-11 nor was it ever fielding such types of terrorists.
You are conducting a mercy mission for the Iraqi people, with the hopes that they will live better, and by one day living better will act as an inspiration for democracies to flourish in the region. It is believed (by Bush) that with democracies in place militant islam will weaken and die and we will then be safer.
However that flies in the face of all evidence. We are a "democracy" and we have Xian religious radicals blowing things up and killing people. Britain is a democracy and has religious and political radicals blowing things up and killing people. Spain is a democracy and so on and so on...
Your primary mission at this point (since terrorism and WMDs have been firmly discounted) is relieving the Iraqi people of Hussein's rule and helping them forge a new and functioning gov't. I really and totally support you in this.
There is no equivication between what I do, and what the insurgents do.
Insurgents is a pretty big tent. You are right and I am not saying you were similar to the insurgents. All I ever said is that you displayed the same callous attitudes which were used to show what we were not held by the IRAQI ARMY. As you point out most of the insurgents are from outside and they have more to do with something else entirely.
That said, some of the insurgents are doing exactly what you are doing and all have the same purpose. After Hussein was brought down there was a power vacuum. Many different players want to influence where the new Iraq ends up.
That does not make your mission lesser. You are fighting to give (as much as will be given) the government to the people of Iraq. I think that is a more valid mission.
That says nothing about attitude and iconography which is what I had questions about.
It's not idiotic, it's a simple phrase for what we do.
Unless you belong to an army of ogres, or Forest Gump, it is pretty ignorant sounding to say "I kill, I break things"... don't you think?
If I went to mechanic and he said "I turns wrenches, I fix" does that inspire confidence?
On top of this, my point has still been missed. I would not expect a Xian soldier to be emphasizing those portions of his duty and in that manner. It does seem inconsistent.
Now be honest, is "I kill, I break things" a form of esprit de corps as was advanced? And does it sound like a reflection of a devout Xian?
However, until the bad guys stop killing civillians and blowing stuff up, killing them remains our primary job.
Well that's not true right on its face. Your mission is to end conflict and when necessary kill. There has already been one militant leader who is not only not the target of US bullets, but is protected by the Iraqi gov't. A stand off which ends in peaceful resolution is preferred is it not?
I realize that will not be the option you are always given and you will have to kill. Again, where does the pride come in that function?
Even the quote from Psalms does not support your apparent attitude, your persona. He did not make glib commentary, though glad about the deaths of his enemy. It was honoring God for helping him defeat those that were trying to defeat him.
They want to be martyrs and I help them get their wish is not of the same caliber. If the opposition said "US soldiers want to see Jesus and I am helping them get their wish" would that not sound ignorant and not so peace loving to you?
I opened a thread more approriate for further discussion on this specific topic. You can reply to me there.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tal, posted 01-01-2005 2:05 AM Tal has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5208 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 35 of 42 (172692)
01-01-2005 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tal
12-31-2004 5:50 AM


About 6-10K yes, but I believe this topic has an entire forum to itself? I've already read umpneen posts about the age of the earth and seen the examples of why it can't be over 10,000 years old and why it must be at least 4 billion. To answer simply, I don't think Carbon dating is quite as accurate as it is made out to be.
What does carbon dating have to do with dating the age of the Earth to 4 billion years?
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tal, posted 12-31-2004 5:50 AM Tal has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 6068 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 36 of 42 (172693)
01-01-2005 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Tal
01-01-2005 5:35 AM


We refer to it as the sandbox...because there is sand here, and lots of it. Even here in the Tigris river basin the most you'll see is palm trees and very little grass. Isreal has grass and many different types of trees.
None of this addresses the points I made.
Yes, Israel has grass and trees in parts. It is more agriculturally developed, though such projects are going on throughout the MidEast other nations also have much more land. Iraq cannot possibly have the same reclamation abilities as Israel. Can you figure out why?
In the end Israel is a desert and exists in a desert, just like the rest. You can pretty well find that even in the Bible.
It seems a bit lacking in introspection to believe "sandbox" is a neutral statement with logical reasons of floral conditions to exclude Israel.
(edited in: I checked out the link. It was ignorant and offensive though I see what the humor is. I don't mind poking fun at other cultures and that can always be ignorant and offensive (I think we have a thread on that).
To me personally it crossed the line when the guy shot the guy singing God is great, but hey taste is subjective.
That said, if that bit of humor represents your attitude about the midEast and Islam (interestingly the clip is so ignorant as to confuse arab and Islam) you are in some sad shape. If you don't think it would be offensive to the very people you are supposed to be helping, and indicative of an disinterest in actually helping those people, then you are ignorant.
I am still confounded as to how you claim fundie Xian ethics and enjoy patently offensive and violent humor like that.)
{second edit: I like how your site is run by someone called heretic}
This message has been edited by holmes, 01-01-2005 07:01 AM
This message has been edited by holmes, 01-01-2005 07:04 AM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Tal, posted 01-01-2005 5:35 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Tal, posted 01-01-2005 8:05 AM Silent H has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 37 of 42 (172701)
01-01-2005 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Silent H
01-01-2005 6:52 AM


I am still confounded as to how you claim fundie Xian ethics and enjoy patently offensive and violent humor like that.)
I like how you refer to me as a "fundie Xian" while telling me you are offended in my calling the mideast "the sandbox."
As for the rest of your desert drivel, anyone that has visited these countries knows what I'm talking about. It passes the common sense test. Your objection to it does not IMO.
I am still confounded as to how you claim fundie Xian ethics and enjoy patently offensive and violent humor like that.
I never claimed to be perfect nor have a monopoly on wisdom. But the link is funny. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. It's funny, so I laugh.
Common sense test again.
This message has been edited by Tal, 01-01-2005 08:08 AM

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Silent H, posted 01-01-2005 6:52 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 6068 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 38 of 42 (172712)
01-01-2005 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tal
01-01-2005 8:05 AM


I like how you refer to me as a "fundie Xian" while telling me you are offended in my calling the mideast "the sandbox."
Oh boy I need a permanent explanation somewhere. I have a habit of using as short of phrases as possible. If you stay on long enough you will even see me use what are often considered negative phrases for evolutionary theorists toward myself.
There was a whole debate on using Xian versus Christian. That simply is not offensive at all, as it comes from historical Xianity.
Fundie is the only thing that can actually be considered offensive. Given that I am not occupying a Xian nation, nor saying things like the Midwest is fundie central except Chicago, there simply is no comparison between what I say and what you say.
As it stands if you have a shorter way of writing fundamentalist which you feel is not offensive, I will gladly use it.
As for the rest of your desert drivel, anyone that has visited these countries knows what I'm talking about. It passes the common sense test. Your objection to it does not IMO.
Desert drivel? Okay come on now. What I said was fact. Or maybe there is an answer to this within your own statement. Someone who "visited these countries" knows what you are talking about. Someone who has lived in those countries or has friends in those countries (including Israel) or has done research on those countries actually knows what they are talking about.
I mean are you seriously claiming Israel was not historically desert terrain, is not green in parts only because of reclamation efforts, is still desert in portions and that which is green would return to desert if the reclamation efforts ended?
Some of Israel is like an oasis in a desert. That is true of other parts of the MidEast as well, is that not so?
I never claimed to be perfect nor have a monopoly on wisdom. But the link is funny. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. It's funny, so I laugh.
Wait a second, don't get me wrong. I am not saying it is not funny. I clearly said I saw what the humor was.
I am a huge supporter of the absolute subjectivity of taste and that includes humor.
It started kind of funny but the lack of accurate info and blatant silliness eventually built up and then I didn't find shooting a guy singing God is Great was funny at all (was a singer supposed to be a terrorist?). Thus it wasn't funny to me.
My confusion came from the FACT that the joke is based on the idea that liberal sexual mores are good and a reason to live. Maybe all the comments about sand made you miss everything else, but what that guy said seemed inconsistent with your comment in an earlier thread that liberal sexual mores are detrimental.
In addition it was patently offensive humor, meaning it derived humor from making offensive statements. I like offensive humor and have defended it in threads at EvC. So that is not any issue I am making. I do wonder though why a Xian would find such offensive statements as funny.
I also pointed out it was filled with ignorant commentary that one would hope is not your actual view of the region and the people. Not being able to tell between arab, Islam, and militant Islam is about as ignorant appearing as thinking french fries have something to do with France.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tal, posted 01-01-2005 8:05 AM Tal has not replied

  
Shaz
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 42 (172733)
01-01-2005 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Silent H
01-01-2005 5:20 AM


Holmes:
I would like to clarify that my post was not specifically directed at any one person, nor was it intended to reflect poorly on a particular person. What I intended, was merely to illustrate how easily one can be thrown offside, by a lack of simple curtesy. Indeed I did use yours and Kisimons posts to illustrate that point, I did that only because they were the most stand alone examples, and I apologise if that offended either of you.
Find where it assumed any of the above.
Firstly I must apologise again, if the structure of my post gave an impression, that I was referring these things specifically to you. I will reword the post, to reflect my sentiment more accurately. I deliberately chose not to refer to anyone specifically, when proposing, ‘that implication was made that Tal was contradictory’. I did this out of curtesy to those who had done so. However if you insist on my providing proof, I could send you a private mail regarding post 7, to validate what I stated.
Or is it that you like to pretend there is not a great tragedy occuring in Iraq?
Your comment here saddens me; however I have no desire to share my opinion on this issue. Perhaps another time, another place, I may have done so, not now.
Might I ask why this guy is being treated like a delicate flower?
If by that, you mean why I interjected here? My answer to that is contained in post 23 and again in this one, as to my belief system you will find that, on the other thread you started.
For the record though, I do not regard Tal as a ‘delicate flower’, from what I have seen he has certainly held his own. Tal could have been anyone; my interjection would have been no different.
On a general note: I have been at this site for only a few days and I have been shocked on numerous occasions to see, supposedly adult men/women, resorting to the petty antics of youth, in an attempt to prove a point. Perhaps that makes me nave, sensitive, or foolish, but it certainly does not make my comment any less true.
Shaz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Silent H, posted 01-01-2005 5:20 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Silent H, posted 01-01-2005 10:19 AM Shaz has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 6068 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 40 of 42 (172738)
01-01-2005 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Shaz
01-01-2005 10:04 AM


Firstly I must apologise again, if the structure of my post gave an impression, that I was referring these things specifically to you.
Okeydoke. I think everything has been ironed out. I replied before seeing your post in the other thread.
We obviously have different ways of going about making our points known. It is interesting that you prefer private emails. I definitely do not.
I agree I implied that he could be contradictory, but had not meant that he definitely was. I was trying to say that the appearance (to me) was of a contradictory nature. This is of course why I wanted clarification.
Your comment here saddens me; however I have no desire to share my opinion on this issue. Perhaps another time, another place, I may have done so, not now.
If I have a failing in debate it is a tendency to slight exaggeration and button pushing (using sarcasm). I didn't mean to make you sad, though I am unsure why you wouldn't want to talk about Iraq in general right now (I get not arguing whether we should have or not, since that is the past). But that's fine.
For the record though, I do not regard Tal as a ‘delicate flower’, from what I have seen he has certainly held his own.
I do feel, and realize that this is a perception, that he is getting a strange amount of protection that I don't think would have been afforded others.
If that is not the case for you, and you are new so I wouldn't know, then I apologize.
On a general note: I have been at this site for only a few days and I have been shocked on numerous occasions to see, supposedly adult men/women, resorting to the petty antics of youth, in an attempt to prove a point.
Well I hope this comment is not about anything I have done. Always feel free to be completely blunt about debate shortcomings I may have. I have an open invitation for anyone to do so. Just please be accurate and not simply saying I must be wrong because of an opinion. Part of my interest in this site is to improve.
In any case, you seem pretty cool even if we disagreed. Very even handed. You may become quite popular like NosyNed who is definitely mister cool at EvC. I admit you have the debate high ground, even if I feel you may have leaned a bit too much on the side of courtesy.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Shaz, posted 01-01-2005 10:04 AM Shaz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Shaz, posted 01-01-2005 11:57 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Shaz
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 42 (172762)
01-01-2005 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Silent H
01-01-2005 10:19 AM


Holmes:
Thank you for your endorsement of my character.
It is interesting that you prefer private emails. I definitely do not.
My offer of private email,was merely to extend curtesy to you, rather than prove a point in a public arena. This curtesy was only extended due to the issue being personal opinion; general debate and statement's of fact, are entirely different.
though I am unsure why you wouldn't want to talk about Iraq in general right now
I have no problem talking about Iraq, or a great many things. The main part of my comment was, "... I may have done so, not now." and was in reference to "...pretend there is not a great tragedy occuring in Iraq?"
In truth, I am over the whole thing, and therefore I thank you for your apology, and your kind words. No doubt, I will see you on other threads. Take Care.
Shaz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Silent H, posted 01-01-2005 10:19 AM Silent H has not replied

  
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Message 42 of 42 (175046)
01-08-2005 2:23 PM


Message 1 of this thread has disappeared. Deleting message 1 isn't supposed to be possible, and I've been unable to uncover the bug that would have caused this. If anyone knows how this might have happened, please post a reply. Thanks!

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