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Author Topic:   Proof and analysis of Biblical end time accuracey [Synnegi]
umliak
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 155 (172188)
12-29-2004 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by purpledawn
12-29-2004 6:08 PM


Re: Earth and Heaven
The Bible tells us all over of heaven and clouds, and hell and fire. My explanation only validates it; taking the idea that sinning creates death (furthermore we are told the punishment for sin is death in the Bible), and so you see that sin creates hell; and that is a punishment on humanity, so the sinner itself will suffer the creation of hell. Also, if hell is created, where then is the good? Surely it exists for God is good. Well, that then is heaven above.
Many places we are told of Jesus ascending into heaven, and coming on the clouds of heaven, and how we're surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses (so watch yourself), and also the clouds being God's chariot. And so if heaven is the ascension, descension is hell and my explanation corresponds with all the forewarnings and scriptures of such.
I have provided several scriptures in my support of this, but I will do it again as well:
Revelation 20:
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
In the Bible you also get a passage saying, "he sits enthroned above the circle of the earth."
Isaiah 40:22 - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Sitteth is used here, but my Bible uses enthroned. Either way, you see that the throne is above the earth. And so a great white throne that Jesus sits on (we already know Jesus is "coming on the clouds of heaven") should lead to understand that this is a great white cloud. All the ground is cloud now; up above and in heaven. And then you hear of things being throne into the lake of fire and such. If the sky is the throne, or new ground (earth), then as sure as the sea is beneath the land, so as us being beneath the clouds and a dry molten hell would be to the clouds a lake of fire. I'll let you run with this.
Your explanation seems to describe a global transformation as opposed to a regional transformation.
I don't see where the author describes the land moving up a level from the planet's surface.
What leads you to understand that heaven becomes the new land?
Because the Bible does not ramble on like modern science-fiction reminding us of NASA's photographs and knowledge of planets. The Biblical authors speak purely of truth. Likewise, if you are on earth, and the earth is destroyed, and the heaven is the sky, and you get all these revelations of a new heaven and a new earth, and also of the clouds and hell, and then using my explanation (a down to earth explanation) see the future of it, would the author's intention of a new heaven and new earth being foretold be an actual new planet or realm? No. I hardly think they even cared about our modern obsession with space travel and dreaming. Living on and being on earth, as all of us, all the days of our lives, you have to remain realistic, and of course, down-to-earth. Don't let science fill you with all kinds of magical ideas and mixup your head. You were born on earth and so far have never left it as long as you've live. Don't be confused by the imagination.
By earth, it is a huge amount of the time referring to the soil, the ground we are on now, and life as we know it in our present form. Your body is made of the earth. Know that. Don't let science confuse you. Remain in the truth; because God does not confuse or lie to you. Moreover, if then the earth as the ground, this big oasis with trees and people dies, don't be a big dreamer assuming you'll just enter some sort of a portal that takes you to some other land. You are a man, your body is made of, born of, grown of and in, and continues to be in and of earth. The soil. The dust. Its life, its air, its people, its everything--God beyond all this; for that matter, who made both the heaven above and earth.
I tell you this because people use a lot of these high sciencey informations to escape the truth. They hear of theories, and ideas, and dreams, and whatifs and "facts", and the final result is a mass confusion.
Know this: if then the earth is the soil and it is destroyed, and if the clouds of the heaven cover it and become the new surface of the planet, then the soil now becomes the lower level, or, the descent, the hell, and heaven would be then a new earth. If heaven is heaven now because it is above us and 'undeveloped', or not yet complete (earth [the soil] is not yet dead or destroyed nor has the clouds enveloped it), then when it becomes the new earth, or the new ground, the new heaven would be that which is above it, right?
Heaven in fact is upward. You get several layers of heaven if you learn more about it. Heaven ascends upward. And so if earth is earth now (in the Bible) because it is where the living is, and yet it is PASSING AWAY, then when heaven now becomes the new earth (where the living is), you see that terms are interchangable with the future.
For there is more than one earth in that time belongs to God. Regardless of what men do and deny and lie about, the fact is the earth now in its present form is dying (we see this; all life on earth dies now), and so the new earth (the clouds) in fact is still planet earth, except, well, I don't know how to explain it. But I hope I answered your questions or concerns.
Basically, if you're confused, I advise you to stop being magical. God alone can do all things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by purpledawn, posted 12-29-2004 6:08 PM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-30-2004 10:16 AM umliak has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 6167 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 92 of 155 (172195)
12-29-2004 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by mike the wiz
12-29-2004 8:56 AM


Re: Tongues
MTW
1 Corinthians 14:2 says For one who speaks in an (unknown) tongue speaks not to men but to G-d, for no one understands of catches his meaning, because in the (Holy) Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things
How can the author of corithians make this statement? No one understands or catches the meaning so this implies he is talking to god as opposed to just plain babbling? Why would you utter secret and hidden things? For who's benefit?
This is about as classic a dodge as I could ever imsgine.You speak in tongues no one can understand about secret hidden things no one knows about.SHEESH. Talk about being PHD.And this is the work of someone with even marginal critical thinking skills?
P.S. Sorry for refering to you as buz.Must be the ...umm..umm... Oh yeah! Senilty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by mike the wiz, posted 12-29-2004 8:56 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 12-29-2004 11:36 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 12-30-2004 10:12 AM sidelined has replied
 Message 97 by umliak, posted 12-30-2004 11:25 AM sidelined has replied
 Message 108 by mike the wiz, posted 12-30-2004 6:22 PM sidelined has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 93 of 155 (172199)
12-29-2004 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by sidelined
12-29-2004 11:19 PM


Re: Tongues
It's also from one of the more sanitized versions of the Bible. In the KJV it reads:
2: For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
And it goes on to place speaking in tongues in perspective.
3: But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4: He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5: I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6: Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2004 11:19 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Shaz, posted 12-30-2004 2:24 PM jar has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 94 of 155 (172255)
12-30-2004 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by sidelined
12-29-2004 11:19 PM


Re: Tongues
Sidelined! Be nice! One reason that I have heard is because demons who are everywhere cannot understand the tongues and so God alone gets the message without Beezlebub running interference. I also have heard African tribesman who were supposedly possessed by demons using the same sounding tongues, so...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2004 11:19 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by sidelined, posted 12-30-2004 5:33 PM Phat has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 95 of 155 (172256)
12-30-2004 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by umliak
12-29-2004 10:40 PM


Re: Earth and Heaven
Umliak, I have a question for you. Speaking as one bible guy to another, what interpretation or meaning do you give this scripture?
2 Peter 1:20-21= Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by umliak, posted 12-29-2004 10:40 PM umliak has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by umliak, posted 12-30-2004 11:19 AM Phat has not replied

umliak
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 155 (172270)
12-30-2004 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
12-30-2004 10:16 AM


Re: Earth and Heaven
2 Peter 1:20-21= Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
The validity of prophets and their prophecies. For instance, if John had interpreted his visions from Revelation himself, they would probably be obscure and misleading. On the other hand, if they came from the Holy Spirit, or God, then it is valid and ought to be acknowledged. Which is why Scriptures still stand, because they are held as given by God--and not just an average dream, or even a halucination.
Furthermore people have proven the validity of many Scriptures to truth, and so people believe in them; such as myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-30-2004 10:16 AM Phat has not replied

umliak
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 155 (172271)
12-30-2004 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by sidelined
12-29-2004 11:19 PM


Re: Tongues
How can the author of corithians make this statement? No one understands or catches the meaning so this implies he is talking to god as opposed to just plain babbling? Why would you utter secret and hidden things? For who's benefit?
This is about as classic a dodge as I could ever imsgine.You speak in tongues no one can understand about secret hidden things no one knows about.SHEESH. Talk about being PHD.And this is the work of someone with even marginal critical thinking skills?
P.S. Sorry for refering to you as buz.Must be the ...umm..umm... Oh yeah! Senilty.
If men knew how to interpret tongues, which is a real language, then we would understand. However it is better to be told things by God which you cannot understand than to hear nothing from God at all. For God plants seeds, and they grow. In time and experience the inspiration from God nourishes you.
I would say, you learn from it in time, but then someone like you would look at that and disbelieve--rationalizing it. So I explain it in a manner you will believe, because this manner is true.
If you look at a new type of animal one day and don't know or understand it, but then with time it becomes more familiar to you, then it is no longer "gibberish" to you, is it? Because with time comes understanding. What God reveals to you today grows and thrives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2004 11:19 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by AdminNosy, posted 12-30-2004 1:35 PM umliak has replied
 Message 107 by sidelined, posted 12-30-2004 5:47 PM umliak has not replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6725 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 98 of 155 (172276)
12-30-2004 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by mikehager
12-28-2004 6:10 PM


Re: Tongues
Umliak, you're still ducking. Evidence or withdrawal, take your pick. Running away from your attempted misinformation isn't going to work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by mikehager, posted 12-28-2004 6:10 PM mikehager has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by umliak, posted 12-30-2004 12:05 PM mikehager has replied

umliak
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 155 (172279)
12-30-2004 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by mikehager
12-30-2004 11:48 AM


Re: Tongues
I'm pretty sure Lisa Gerrard sings in tongues (glossiola) in either one or many of her musics. Hans Zimmer and Lisa Gerrard composed a song called, "Now We Are Free" for the movie Gladiator, and here are the lyrics:
Anol Shalom
Anol sheh lay komud de ne um (Shaddai)
Flavum
Nom
de leesh
Ham de nam um das
La um de
Flavne...
We de ze zu
bu
We de sooo a ru
Un va-a pesh a lay
Un vi-i bee
Un da la
pesh ni sa (Aaahh)
Un di-i lay na day
Un ma la pech a nay
mee di nu ku
(Fast tempo, 4 times)
La la da pa da le na da na
Ve va da pa da le na da dumda
Anol Shalom
Anol Sheh ley
Kon-nud de ne um
Flavum
Flavum
M-ai shondol-lee
Flavu... (live on)
Lof flesh lay
Nof de lis
Ham de num um dass
La um de Flavne...
Flay
Shom de nomm
Ma-lum des
Dwondi
Dwwoondi
Alas Sharum du koos
Koot-tum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by mikehager, posted 12-30-2004 11:48 AM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by mikehager, posted 12-30-2004 7:23 PM umliak has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4755
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 100 of 155 (172295)
12-30-2004 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by umliak
12-30-2004 11:25 AM


Re: Tongues
which is a real language
You seem to have some trouble with a particular concept. That phrase above is called an assertion, a claim. It is, as it sits, totally unsupported. When asked to support it you will have to supply some evidence or retract the claim. There have been some suggestions (unsupported) earlier that tongues is not a real language at all. I think that the positive claim that they are will be the one requireing the most support.
That is the way an intellecutally honest discussion works, Umliak. So far you seem to be having trouble holding up your end of it.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 12-30-2004 13:36 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by umliak, posted 12-30-2004 11:25 AM umliak has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by umliak, posted 12-30-2004 2:19 PM AdminNosy has not replied

umliak
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 155 (172301)
12-30-2004 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by AdminNosy
12-30-2004 1:35 PM


Re: Tongues
You are attempting to oppress expression and religious validity or worth. People can speak using scientific assertions, but anything involving something you yourself do not believe (such as tongues which is accounted in Biblical scripture and told to be a utterance of hidden things [a real language] from the Holy Spirit) ought be challenged beyond crucifixion and oppressed.
I provided enough support for it, including a popular song available to yourself and others. Lisa Gerrard has a website, http://www.lisagerrard.com/
Go to the sountracks section, and a soundclip of "Now We Are Free" will be playing. It seems you expect me to walk on water to support and justify myself to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by AdminNosy, posted 12-30-2004 1:35 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Shaz
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 155 (172303)
12-30-2004 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
12-29-2004 11:36 PM


Re: Tongues
Incorrect use of tongues in the Corinthian church.
Jar writes:
Paul is very clear there that speaking in tongues is worthless and pointless.
Paul was addressing the Corinthian church; because the issue of spiritual gifts was creating a split within the church. As Jar pointed out, Paul noted what the people of the church should strive for in their meetings. He did not say that speaking in the language of the spirit, or tongues as it is commonly known should cease in its entirety though. He did however give clear guidelines as to the appropriate use of the gift, including praying for the gift of interpretation.
1Corinthians14:15
So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind, I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind
He then goes on to explain why the church service should be conducted in such a way as to be understood.
1Corinthians14:23-24
So if the whole church comes together and speaks in tongues and some unbelievers come in, will they not say you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever comes in while everybody is prophesising, he will be convinced
Therefore I propose, that not once did Paul ever say that speaking in tongues was worthless or pointless, for an individual. Rather that he proposed the speaking in tongues, was of minor significance during a church service.
Shaz
p.s. See following post for further clarification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 12-29-2004 11:36 PM jar has not replied

Shaz
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 155 (172304)
12-30-2004 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by NosyNed
12-29-2004 2:17 PM


Re: Some clarifiction on tongues
Nosyned writes:
In addition there is no tested, controled cases?
Research study Spanos et al: 60 subjects, of those, 12 learnt glossolalia, and with further study, 70% of those 12, went on to speak glossolalia fluently. = Total fluent glossolalia subjects — 8.4
quote:
Relatedly, the available empirical data fail to support the hypothesis that glossolalics suffer higher levels of psychopathology than nonglossolalics." Spanos, Nicholas P., et al
Glossolalia: possible origins
Shaz
oops typo edit
This message has been edited by Shaz, 31 December 2004 05:31 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by NosyNed, posted 12-29-2004 2:17 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by mikehager, posted 12-30-2004 7:35 PM Shaz has not replied

Shaz
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 155 (172306)
12-30-2004 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by sidelined
12-28-2004 7:59 PM


Re: Tongues
Are tongues Glossolalia?
With the increasingly common use of tongues particularly in Pentecostal churches, there is much debate as to what tongues are, and if indeed they are Glossolalia.
quote:
Glossolalia (i.e., speaking in tongues) is vocalization that sounds language like but is devoid of semantic meaning or syntax(Spanos, Nicholas P., et al; "Glossolalia as Learned Behavior: An Experimental Demonstration," Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 95:21, 1986.)
Sidelined if I recall correctly cited, Robert Todd Carrol.
Glossolalics behave in various ways, depending upon the social expectations of their community.
Glossolalia itself is not indicative of a correlation, between a particular community and an individual manifestation of behaviour. Therefore a statement such as the one above is a generalisation, and inaccurate assumption.
quote:
...but it often occurs in the absence of all such dramatic accompaniments (Spanos & Hewitt, 1979).
quote:
...and their deficiencies as general theories of multiplicity become obvious when these enactments are compared across historical and cultural contexts.
Multiple Identity Enactments and Multiple Personality Disorder: A Socio-cognitive Perspective
One-Stop, Easy to Access Knowledge and Training Hub for Students
Incidents of glossolalia, relevant to other cultures and historical groups, have very little bearing on the glossolalia sweeping Pentecostal churches. As noted above there have been no psychopathological correlations. Unlike glossolalia, echolalia and aphasia are pathological disorders. The glossolalia affecting people, with mental illness has also significant differences, to the ‘tongues’ type glossolalia.
There has also been no drug induced or hypnotic induced affect linked to ‘Pentecostal tongues’, unlike glossolalia in pagan festivals.
quote:
Pagan ecstasy was induced by drugs and intoxicants, loud and relentless drumming that evoked responsive and rhythmical movements of the body, and dissociation from one’s normal stream of consciousness under intense emotional agitation.
Thesis: William Graham MacDonald.
Mr MacDonald also concludes that:
quote:
If anything, biblical glossolalia improves one’s mental equilibrium, because such prayer and praise edifies
http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/.../200501_Glossolalia_3.cfm (William MacDonald.)
Sideline cited writes:
All believe they are possessed by the Holy Spirit and the gibberish they utter is meaningful.
Once again, a generalisation, that all believe such to be the case, and an assumption, that the ‘gibberish’, is not meaningful.
Romans8:26
quote:
In the same way the spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the spirit himself intercedes for us, with groans that words cannot express. And He, who searches our hearts, knows the minds of the spirit, because the spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with Gods will.
This quote supports that the spirit, intercedes, and communicates during prayers. Subsequently with such being the case, it is reasonable to assume that to the Christian walk talking in tongues is meaningful for the purpose of their walk. Mike has also already cited 1Corinthians14:2 in message 82.
1Corinthians13:1
quote:
If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal
John4:24
quote:
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.
Mt10:19-20
quote:
but when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the spirit of your father speaking through you. Jesus told the disciples.
In summary; glossolalia is admittedly the term given to much of what Pentecostal churches call tongues. The biblical glossolalia has though proven to be different to other forms, in that it is not pathological, and that it is not drug induced. It is also not without purpose, even if it is merely for personal edification and communication between the spirit and God. Scripture as I have illustrated also states, that the spirit has more than one means, of communicating with the Father. By the language of angels, the language of men, and groans that words cannot express.
To date no man, scientific, or research method has been able to measure or determine the validity of every case of professed speaking in tongues. Unrefutably however, is the many uses that directly contravene biblical teachings in regards to its use. Perhaps speaking in tongues, or glossolalia will never be fully understood or accepted by any but those who use it, regardless of belief.
Shaz
This message has been edited by Shaz, 31 December 2004 05:50 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by sidelined, posted 12-28-2004 7:59 PM sidelined has not replied

umliak
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 155 (172307)
12-30-2004 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by umliak
12-21-2004 8:24 PM


Synnegi
FYI, I am going to title this explanation of the end of earth (the ground dying and turning to a molten layer of the core as hell, and the clouds covering the sky as heaven when the all the water evaporates to it: and the fact that it as a scientific observation and explanation also matches the Biblical account of the heaven and hell and the end of the world) so that when referring to it it is much easier to simply type out the word to represent the whole field of explanation. I'll call it "Synnegi". I made several words, but synnegi is the shortest and is greek for, "cloud ground".
I could have went with "Asprosfaira" as, "white sphere," or even "Chomafotia" as, "fire soil," or even "Asprosgi" as, "white ground". But just so you know why I used "cloud ground", or, "Synnegi", it is because it's short and easy to remember. Use it, know it, and remember it because I will be using it to refer to the whole thing from now on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by umliak, posted 12-21-2004 8:24 PM umliak has not replied

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