Christian Denominations - Heaven and Hell

It would seem that when discussing spiritual truths, one should show at least some of the Spirit that they are representing. Be nice to Jar.

All right, I'll tone it down and redo that subtitle (though I still love the book 1984). But as a high-school debater who is experienced in debate, Jar is really starting to frustate me (comparing me to "Exclusionist Christian sects" as early as Message 7 didn't help, either).This message has been edited by commike37, 12-30-2004 12:43 AMThis message has been edited by commike37, 12-30-2004 12:44 AM

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but as 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness."

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If scripture is refering to that which is cannonized or considered holy at the time of Paul, then none of the NT would qualify. Would Paul consider his own letters to be holy scripture?IMO, Paul is not pre-approving the writings of future authors.What do those books that were considered holy during Paul's time say about how to get to Heaven or Hell?

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

First off, this message was moreso meant to say to jar that I can use any part of the Bible to talk about John 14, not just John 14. edit: It was saying I could use any part of the Bible to talk about heaven or hell.But on the question of whether or not Paul is pre-approving future work, the answer is yes. It says, "All Scripture is God-breathed," which means that whether it is written in the past, present, or future, it's approved as long as it's God-breathed. For more support, let's look to John 14:26
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
The Holy Spirit would teach the disciples everything (including all of what Jesus would say). And even if a certain book wasn't written yet, the Holy Spirit can still teach the disciples what that book will say.The key thing to remember here is that Scripture is God-breathed and that these people are inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is not Paul's job to worry about pre-approving future works, for God is present in Paul and will handle all of that.Does that help?This message has been edited by commike37, 12-30-2004 14:04 AM

I certainly agree that the Beattitudes establishes a standard that we should follow. However, just like the Ten Commandments, no one has perfectly lived up to the standards of the Beattitudes, so it's not a means to salvation.

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You always ask this, and I suppose that from your standpoint it makes perfect sense. to me, God is an absolute, and there is one of him. Naturally, humans have invented many gods, and from your standpoint there is no difference.

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Well, right.You are an atiest about a great many concepts of God/gods, phat.

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True enough, and worth pondering. But to admit that we are a speck of a speck of a fleas ticks speck in the universe and then assume to know so much about it

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Who says we assume to know so much about it?There is a great, great deal that we do not know, about a great many things in the universe.I do not personally know of any scientist or science-minded person who thinks that science has all the answers.Far from it, actually.It is religious folk who seem to want to tell me that they have all the answers.

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all the while denying previous human religious speculations is NOT being humble, either.

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We don't deny the speculations, we test them.How many have survived the testing? How many have proved reliable, even for people who do not share the required faith?

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We have simply made a god out of logic and science.

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Hmm. If science is a God at least by using science we have tangible, real results that actually benefit people regardless of if they believe in it.Anyway, I do not worship science nor logic. I consider them very reliable, extremely useful tools in understanding the natural universe.

That's true. I don't want you to miss out on eternal life.Does this mean I fear death? Well, I fear hell more than the mind ending. I'll admitt that. It might seem that way if you are reading mike at evc. It might also seem that the brain is the mind - while investigating the brain only.

. Maybe I need to give my debating skills an improvement. I seem to be asked questions and expected to answer. I'm always the one being interviewed. Lol.But Shraff hasn't got an ego problem IMHO. Her baba is sweet.

Supposedly if you believe that Jesus lived a perfect life and died on the cross to pay the penalty for all our sins, then supposedly Christ has met your requirements for entrance into heaven, depending on which preacher you listen to of course.The synoptics claim: When the young man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus listed the commandments dealing with people and added sell all and give to the poor.The author of John has Jesus say that we are to believe in/on him (Jesus) for everlasting life.Paul preaches grace/faith.

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The key thing to remember here is that Scripture is God-breathed and that these people are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

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Interesting that translation and interpretation aren't God-breathed? Unfortunately we are at the mercy of the messengers.So if II Timothy wasn't written until about 100AD, how does that impact the authority of that statement?

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Well, you still have to accept this message of grace. I go more in depth about that in the topic about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Jesus was raising the standard for people who wanted to get into heaven by good works. The person who asked Jesus was trying to justify himself by the Law, so Jesus first laid out the commandments, and then he added the "sell all and give to the poor" to show that the person couldn't be justified by works (because he wouldn't do it). Jesus does this a lot also on the Sermon on the Mount (ie: adultery is looking at a woman lustfully, murder is hating your own brother). By raising the standards it shows that only Jesus can obey the Law. It seems that the Greek word here is "theopneustos." I was feeling lucky on Google, and I got this:
"St. Paul, in 2 Tim 3:16, used the technical term Theopneustos, which means inspired by God, to indicate the special act by which God inspired the Scriptures"
It's not exactly God-breathed, but it still fits my point on how an author could pre-date approval because his writing is inspired by God.

Excellent point.Christ said that the sinner who repents goes away justified rather than the righteouss man who says "thanks for making it so I am not like that sinner, God".Is it just me, or are all mike's excellent geniuses?

Well, you are free to debate. I will tell you and if you will check, what I really prefer is discussion. I'm not trying to change your belief, but rather I'm trying to explain my position. Since you have thrown a great pile of spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks, let me try answering your "critical" questions as I see them. You try to help others. Not for gain, not as a condition of salvation, but because that it the charge from Jesus. You stop the car to carry a tutle across the busy highway. You help a short person reach products on the top shelf. You help the person infront or behind you unload their shopping cart at the store. When talking to kids you listen to what they say and get down to their level. You take the time to talk to elders, and to listen to their tales.It's simple. Through what you do, not what you say. Do the things listed above.It's simple. The first thing is to actually act like the sheep. Very, very few do.This is a very important part and IMHO, gets to the heart of what I think is the great misunderstanding of the issue of WORKS. It's very likely that the GOATS did good works. They are honestly surprised by the charge leveled at them. You get nowhere doing WORKS as a condition or purchase price for salvation. You can't buy your way in.But you also cannot get in without works.The difference is in the purpose of the works. The message of the Bible, of Jesus, is that each of us really need to try to do what's right, because that is what needs to be done. Just do it. Help others.It's really that simple. Great question and very, very important.The thing to remember is that the gift was freely given. Sins are forgiven. Everyones sins, Christian or Jew, Muslim or Hindu, Atheist or Agnostic. It's a done deal.So what's the catch?The catch is you're asked to live by the Two Great Commandments.Love GOD...and the two parter (note the second part is as important as the first)love others as you love yourself.And you will still never appear perfect before GOD. Don't worry though, like most parents he understands that. Your not perfect, just forgiven. Get serious. There are no smear attacks. I try to stick to content, not personalities.But a religion that says you must profess is exclusionary. And IMHO opinion, that's wrong. And the things I find reading the Bible over the last 50 years or more have said just that. It's not what you profess, it's what you do.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

R u assuming that good workers are not believers?This seems to be a preconception you have.All these things you've suggested are good anyway, and I agree about those good things.

No, not at all. But it is not limited to believers. Non believers too can help others.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Whether it's the Two Great Commandments, The Ten Commandments, or the Beattitudes, it's still a standard that no human can live up to, even after receiving forgiveness. As I said earlier in Romans 7:15-20 (that should be the right chapter, I got the wrong chapter in previous messages), Paul, who was a very great exemplar of fulfilling these two commandments, expresses a hopeless feeling of himself falling into sin. Jesus said in Matthew 18:22 that when it comes to how often you forgive people, In order for someone to be forgiven seventy-seven times, he has to sin seventy-seven times. The problem with faith without works is not based on the works, it's based on the belief (or a false faith) that faith can exist without works. When talking about faith with actions in James 2:14-26, James makes reference to Abraham being willing to sacrifice Isaac in verse 23 Abraham was credited for his belief in God, not his good work by trusting God with his son Isaac. His faith existed before his good work. Works are evidence of genuine faith, but they are in no way a means to salvation.