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Author Topic:   Christian Denominations - Heaven and Hell
mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 253 days)
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 16 of 91 (172176)
12-29-2004 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
12-29-2004 9:11 PM


Re: Game-playing
It's not a quote mine. It's the theme of the whole New Testament. I only wrote it because it was the only relevant part. The meaning is there to be read, along with the agreeing quotes.
Jesus is the way the truth and life - and their testimony is that we might also believe because to believe, and accept the bread of heaven gives life eternal.

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 Message 15 by jar, posted 12-29-2004 9:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 253 days)
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 17 of 91 (172178)
12-29-2004 9:24 PM


I have to go now. It is an admirable trait to say that being a sheep (seperation of sheep and goats) alone will get you heaven, and I also hope it is possible for atheists to be saved, and that they are saved because of their sheepiness . But Jar - I just don't read it in there that much as compared to belief being the key. Certainly, everyone I know is atheist - so I would love to find the place where it says atheism will also give eternal life. But for me - unbelieving is a wrong path, a wide one. The path to life is narrow - and we can see from my quotes, as to what/who gives life.

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by nator, posted 12-30-2004 9:30 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 91 (172180)
12-29-2004 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by mike the wiz
12-29-2004 9:16 PM


Re: Game-playing
So Mike, take a break. But there is still a question pending. What does the next line say? And once we get that settled we can work through the whole of John 14 to try to determine what it does say.
John 14;6, Jesus sayeth unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me.
What do you call taking one line out of context?
Run off if you wish, or rest and come back another day. The rest of John 14 will still be waiting.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by mike the wiz, posted 12-29-2004 9:16 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 91 (172190)
12-29-2004 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
12-29-2004 7:43 PM


Actually, no you haven't. What you've done is quote mine a small piece from John while ignoring the rest of the message. That's a classic tactic of the Exclusionist Christian sects. It's like John 3 that they also constantly quote out of context.
FYI, I'm Lutheran, not an Exclusionist Christian sect.
If ye love me, keep my commandments
Let's see who's truly out of context. First off, the word love means "agapao" in the original Greek (Greek has three versions of love). This originates from the word "agape," which in the New Testament refers to the unconditional love with which God loves us. No human, except Jesus, was capable of "agape" love.
Sources:
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
Bible Study - You Have Questions. The Bible Has Answers!
Furthermore, I have two Bible verses to back up my point.
Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,"
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."
Key Phrases: not from yourselves, not by works
Quite frankly, there's no way anyone can live up to God's standard by works. God's standard of good works is perfection. Anything less falls short and doesn't give you the golden ticket to heaven. The only way you can be perfect is if your sins disappear, which is exactly what Jesus does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-29-2004 7:43 PM jar has replied

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 Message 20 by jar, posted 12-29-2004 11:25 PM commike37 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 91 (172196)
12-29-2004 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by commike37
12-29-2004 10:52 PM


But you are being Exclusionary. You're saying that a few are in, most are out.
Let's see who's truly out of context. First off, the word love means "agapao" in the original Greek (Greek has three versions of love).
Sounds interesting to explore. Shall we proceed?
As you has shown, John was from the Hellenisation period of Christianity, when so many of the older Greek Mythos aspects were written in.
But in this case (and many others) we do not have to rely solely on single word interpretations.
For now, let's stick with John. I'll get around to Pauline Theology later.
Look at John 14:10-15. Throughout that section Jesus is talking about actions, works. It ends, in 15 with him saying Keep my Commandments.
And what are those? Why the two Great Commandments. Love God and Love others as you love yourself.
He reinforces that in 21:
21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
So loving him is action, works.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by commike37, posted 12-29-2004 10:52 PM commike37 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by commike37, posted 12-29-2004 11:55 PM jar has replied
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 12-30-2004 9:41 AM jar has replied

  
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 91 (172203)
12-29-2004 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
12-29-2004 11:25 PM


As you has shown, John was from the Hellenisation period of Christianity, when so many of the older Greek Mythos aspects were written in.
But in this case (and many others) we do not have to rely solely on single word interpretations.
But what you don't get is that this single word established a standard that is impossible to fill, as I established in Romans 3:23. This is agape love, not phileo love. Perhaps if you read Romans 6:15-20, you'll truly understand how futile it is to rely on ourselves for grace.
So loving him is action, works.
You don't get it. His commands to love each other could not have been carried out by the disciples to the level necessary to receive salvation. Hope does not exist in the law, but in grace. As Romans 6:14 says, "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." And remember that grace is it says in Ephesians, is "not from yourselves" (it should be noted that you didn't attack my additional support of my stance with Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 3:23). And let us look at the last verse of Ephesians 2, which reads, "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Good works do not lead to salvation. Good works are the result of salvation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 12-29-2004 11:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 12-30-2004 12:08 AM commike37 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 91 (172205)
12-30-2004 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by commike37
12-29-2004 11:55 PM


Let's get through John and then we can move on to other supporting positions. Can we return to John?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by commike37, posted 12-29-2004 11:55 PM commike37 has replied

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 Message 23 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 12:25 AM jar has replied

  
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 91 (172208)
12-30-2004 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
12-30-2004 12:08 AM


Now who's exclusionary?
But don't you get it? It's now you who are being exclusionary and out-of-context. The Bible is most certainly consistent with itself (well, at least in this topic it will be, I don't think that assumption could be made in an evolution versus creation topic). If the message in John truly requires good works, then it should be supported with other parts of the Bible. I've established that John requires good works, but the type of good works it requires is loving each other through "agape" love. Since no disciple is capable of that, we must look beyond John 14 to get the true context. This message could certainly be confirmed through other parts of John, but as 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness." Meaning I can refute your argument with other parts of John, but I can also do it with other books of the Bible.
This message has been edited by commike37, 12-30-2004 00:25 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 12-30-2004 12:08 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 12-30-2004 12:39 AM commike37 has replied
 Message 48 by purpledawn, posted 12-30-2004 1:30 PM commike37 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 91 (172210)
12-30-2004 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by commike37
12-30-2004 12:25 AM


Re: Now who's exclusionary?
We have not yet finished John 14, much less John. You've stated an opinion, but that is all that it is. You are still also simply taking sections out of context. The Bible clearly and definitely says time and time again that salvation is through WORKS, through actions.
Meaning I can refute your argument with other parts of John, but I can also do it with other books of the Bible.
Okay, let's look at Matthew 25. See, one of the great things about the Bible is that it can be used to support ANY position. This is particularly true when pulling individual lines from the books as you have been doing.
John 14, if you take the whole chapter, says and describes works, and they are not only within the capabilities of just plain folk, they were expected of them. If you are unwilling to look beyond your little quote out of context efforts, that's fine. But it leaves you with a sad little exclusionary faith and I believe misses the beauty and promise of Christianity.
The promise of salvation is there for all, believer and non-believer, atheist and Christian, Jew and Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu. It's not difficult, it's not hard, just Love.
It's sad. Whenever I run into one of you and try to get you to read beyond the single line you select, you dart off to some other quote mine area. Only a few times have I found one of you willing to look beyond the infomercial, to actually read the Bible.
Sad.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 12:25 AM commike37 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 2:01 AM jar has replied
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commike37
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 91 (172213)
12-30-2004 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
12-30-2004 12:39 AM


Taking it one step farther
We have not yet finished John 14, much less John. You've stated an opinion, but that is all that it is. You are still also simply taking sections out of context. The Bible clearly and definitely says time and time again that salvation is through WORKS, through actions.
Funny thing is here, up until you used Matthew 25 in this post, you only provided one passage to support your view. Talk about out-of-context. Meanwhile, I have directly quoted or made reference to the following scripture:
Romans 3:23
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 17:15-20
And although you constantly accuse me of being out-of-context, on how many of these verses have you specifically shown me how I'm out-of context? And how many have you refuted with Biblical support? Zero. It's time you start going beyond your prima facie claims.
Okay, let's look at Matthew 25. See, one of the great things about the Bible is that it can be used to support ANY position. This is particularly true when pulling individual lines from the books as you have been doing.
Here I go I'll look at Matthew 25. And I'll show how each section doesn't say works is necessary for salvation.
The Parable of the Ten Virgins
Let's also look to Matthew 26:40-41
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keept watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
1. The disciples weren't always ready as you're supposed to be in the Parable of Ten Virgins, but are they now going to hell for that?
2. Notice how Jesus emphasizes the difference between the spirit and body.
The Parable of the Talents
The problem with this is that the servant with one talent was a believer (in the parable, he had a master), but his faith was dead. James 2:17 says that In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But he later says in verse 19, You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-- and shudder. This passage does not say that saving faith is dead, it says that a simple "I believe in Jesus", but not trusting in Him faith is dead. It was aimed at a false faith, just like the parable. This false faith is also shown in verse 18, But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. This passage denotes two types of faith: a false and a true one. It says that deeds is the result of faith (not vice-versa), and was used to warn against people who thought they could just believe in Christ and do nothing about it. This is what the parable truly warns against. It does not establish faith by works.
The Sheep and the Goats
All of us have certainly been on both sides by doing or not doing something one of the least of these. What then separates us from the sheep and the goats? John 14:6 says that we come through the father only through Jesus. The answer is simple. None of us have earned the praise God lavishes us. But as 1 Corinthians 6:11 says, And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, and you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. The reason why God lavishes the sheep with praise is not by works, it is because of Jesus.
It's sad. Whenever I run into one of you and try to get you to read beyond the single line you select, you dart off to some other quote mine area. Only a few times have I found one of you willing to look beyond the infomercial, to actually read the Bible.
Actually, I looked beyond John 14:6 and saw that you must follow God's commands if you love him. But I've also established that this kind of love is "agape" love. And now what I've done is go one step farther to see how one can achieve agape love. And despite all of your out-of-context, exclusionary attacks, you have not directly touched upon how you achieve agape love.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 12-30-2004 12:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 12-30-2004 9:30 AM commike37 has replied

  
Shaz
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 91 (172226)
12-30-2004 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by commike37
12-28-2004 1:23 AM


My 2 cents worth.
I hope no-one minds me butting in here. After reading the posts here, I thought I would offer my own interpretation. I am no scholar, so please feel free, to point me to errors within my post, or the way I post. At the outset I must also apologise for the length of this post.
In relation to the discussion of John 14:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, I am the way, and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.
‘Coming to the father’, IMHO, is not necessarily indicative of going to heaven. Taking into account the context of the chapter, Jesus talks about being able to do what he has been doing, and precedes this with reference to miracles.
John 14:12-14
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me, will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these because I am going to the father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the father. You may ask me for anything in my name and I will do it.
Subsequently, when Jesus states ‘coming to the father’, I believe he is talking about the ability to communicate with the father, and to bring prayers directly to the father. There are many references within the bible, of ‘coming unto’ the father in prayer through Christ, the lord. As there are many references, which state, the way to salvation is not only through works. (not cited due to length of post)
John 14:15
If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Jesus quite clearly states, for the believer to keep the commandments, to fulfil the ‘intent’ of the teachings. Love however, is not indicative of salvation, just as love is not indicative of a marriage without strife, a parent/teen relationship without stress (I am generalising, for the purpose of example, this is in no means indicative of all relationships, regardless of belief).
IMHO, Jesus intent was for the followers, to live in goodness, and with purposeful loving intent. Given the enormity of that ask, Jesus recognised that one would need help with the enormity of living a righteous life, and he introduced, ‘the counsellor’, and coming to the father in prayer.
John14:16-17
And I will ask the father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever — the spirit of Truth..."
The counselor aka holy spirit, I believe to be the key stone to truth, in accordance with Christ's words.
The topic: Or, in simpler words, what are the bare minimum requirements as to what you can and can not believe to go to heaven in Christianity?"
Denominations; Personally I have nothing of relevance to offer there, as I tend to hold a non denominational perspective of Christianity. Neither do I take your question, to be relevant to only one particular belief system.
Therefore for the purpose of your question, I have applied it only to my individual interpretation of, charismatic Christianity.
Matthew24:12
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Given that scripture, I believe love to be the pillar stone of salvation, and I believe {wo} man, to be incapable of achieving full agape love alone (see above John14:15-17).
1Corinthians13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
In these words, we are clearly told what our love should be like. It is more than a simple declaration of love, but also of actions, or ‘works’ as some would say.
Matthew25:34-36
..., come you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you ... For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, ...
As shown by this passage, action is expected from believers. Just as we do not live by bread alone, we also are not expected to walk by word alone. As John told the people, produce fruit, in keeping with repentance Luke 3:8-10
John is giving directives for how a believer should live, in accordance with the word of God. Jesus also paid homage to John’s teachings as purposeful to the believers.
Matthew21:32
For John, came to show to you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Jesus followed up, by saying that those who deny their fellow man are just as guilty of denying him.
Therefore for the purpose of this discussion, I propose the minimum requirements to go to heaven may be found in the Beatitudes. (Italics mine)
  • Blessed are the poor in spirit, because theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew5:3 To recognise weakness in oneself, and that being righteous, as one stands on ones own is impossible.
  • Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted. Matthew5:4— Mourning when one recognises the sin within oneself, and seeks repentance.
  • Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Matthew5:5 - To be humbled, and without foolish pride.
  • Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Matthew5:6 — Actively pursuing righteousness, for ones self, and for humanities, goodness.
  • Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Matthew5:7 — To forgive, love and accept the person, regardless of history, separating the person from the deed.
  • Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Matthew5:8 — Having no self gratifying intent, to love unconditionally.
  • Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God.Matthew5:9 — Those slow to wrath, the patient mediators, who bridge the gap, to care, and help others regardless, or in spite of sin.
  • Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew5:10
Whether or not the beatitudes are the sum collective of a doorway to heaven, I do not know, but they are the path that I try to follow. On a more personal note; my main belief, is that we are each judged individually, no more, no less. It's up to us, what we take with us to our judgement.
Again I apologise for the length of this post, I tried, to be conclusive, and I have summarised where possible. Though I suspect I have addressed too many points.
Shaz
  • Citations taken from NIV - Life application Bible.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by commike37, posted 12-28-2004 1:23 AM commike37 has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18652
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 4.2


    Message 27 of 91 (172238)
    12-30-2004 9:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 13 by jar
    12-29-2004 8:25 PM


    Re: Bare assertions Mike.
    For a Christian today, works is a proof of salvation, but not a prerequisite. If an atheist flew to India tomorrow and dedicated their life heklping tsunami victims get back on theor feet, it would be a commendable life choice. This person would learn many things about human suffering, dignity, and the ability of a character to renew their purpose and focus in life. By the same token, a fat sassy Southern Baptist may have been in church (chuch) all their lives and been baptized, blood bought, and sanctified. They should not qualify for Heaven by being lazy and selfish, right?
    A Christian is saved, however, through no effort of their own except TRUST. It is clearly the gospel that saves us. But what exactly is the gospel? That too is revealed to us in the Bible. It is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4:
    "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."
    The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Another verse:
    Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
    The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves, but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.
    CARM.org writes:
    The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
    There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
    James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that is words followed by actions. He writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
    In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).
    There is no contradictions. We are saved by Grace alone, by Faith alone, but Works will follow if one is truly a believer. Just as it is impossible for a Mother to not straighten your tie when she sees it askew, it is impossiblpe for a true believer to pass up good works and not do them. The point is that it is not the works that justify the believer. Here is more on the topic:
    http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm
    This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-30-2004 07:25 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by jar, posted 12-29-2004 8:25 PM jar has replied

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     Message 30 by jar, posted 12-30-2004 9:30 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18652
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 4.2


    Message 28 of 91 (172241)
    12-30-2004 9:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 24 by jar
    12-30-2004 12:39 AM


    Re: Now who's exclusionary?
    jar writes:
    The Bible clearly and definitely says time and time again that salvation is through WORKS, through actions.
    It is not necessary as a Christian to perform good works IN ORDER to please God because, first of all, our good deeds are but filthy rags to God (Isaiah 64:6) and, most important, we are made righteous in the eyes of God by the finished work of Jesus on the cross (Rom. 5). Actions DO speak louder than words, and a person who is saved WILL do good works. A husband does not have to buy his wife flowers and pretty things to prove that he loves her. He will buy them IF he loves her, however. (and if she likes them) By the same token, a believer does not have to do good works for God to earn his salvation. A Jewish man under the law who met his Messiah would be expected to do good works, as that was under that law.
    Salvation by Grace was mentioned by Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles..The Gospels are the Gospel of the Kingdom, where works was a necessity for a Jewish believer. The Gospel of Paul was the Gospel of the Mystery, addressed to the called out church from among the Gentiles. Without going into that right now, I will say that one cannot stick to their own ideas of who God is and show total love, because God IS love. If an atheist, Buddhist, or other non-christian were to do the works totally, lovingly, and perfectly, they WOULD meet Jesus. God is not our own internal idea and ideal. God is more than we are. To accept Him requires denying yourself. That is why exclusionism cannot apply here.
    To do good works and yet stubbornly cling to your own ideas about truth and love implies that you are trying to BE God in your own heart. If you were not, you would become a believer and be in heaven by default. Exclusionism sounds mean and arrogant, but it involves an absolute Spirit, and it HAS to be right! Love is the answer, as Jar says. There is no other source for love except God incarnate. We must lose our lives in order to find it. We will never attain the level, but by denying our own power, the level will come to us.
    This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-30-2004 07:33 AM

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 98 days)
    Posts: 34140
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 29 of 91 (172242)
    12-30-2004 9:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 25 by commike37
    12-30-2004 2:01 AM


    Re: Taking it one step farther
    Again, you simply stop when you want, please continue reading.
    Matthew 25:
    32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    Behavior, not words, not belief, not profession but behavior.
    Now I know you believe in an exclusionary salvation, one where only the Christian, the professing, Bible thumping Christian is admitted. That's fine. It's your belief.
    But I do not. Christ died for all mankind, not Christians. Heaven is, and I believe I can support this position Biblically as well as logically, earned through behavior.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 2:01 AM commike37 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 12:05 PM jar has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 98 days)
    Posts: 34140
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 30 of 91 (172243)
    12-30-2004 9:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
    12-30-2004 9:03 AM


    Who did Christ die for?
    was it Christians? or mankind?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by Phat, posted 12-30-2004 9:03 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by Phat, posted 12-30-2004 9:37 AM jar has not replied

      
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