How Can Trinity Believers Explain This

Completely agree! I never claimed to understand exactly how it works, I think all the nitty-gritty of it is very vague and open to interpretation. I've got a basic understanding of the concept and IMHO, it is a good way of making sense of the Bible. I don't think it's the best, or only way, just a good way. I also don't think that it contradicts the Bible, but rather explains it, up to a point. I do, however, take issue when people come here with pre-conceived ideas, that they cannot even biblically support, and refuse to even try to understand another interpretation (I'm not talking about you).

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

So I'm browsing through the forums and I see one on the Trinity.
I think well yea I'm sure I could bring up a few points on this as I have extensively studied this with an open mind. It sounds like there are people like Angel and wmscott who know what they are talking about. The way one can tell how much biblical sence a person has is the frequesncy in which they return to the bible to answer questions. Scroll down the forum and you wil see some people, like Angel and wmscott using many scriptual explainations. The scriptures they use to back up their veiws is what makes them so creditable, not to mention the reasonableness in their explainations. Trinitarians tend to show you a scripture after 10 minutes of lecturing and hope to God that you can't explain it. After a bible-oriented response, they tend to say something along the lines of "well its a mystery." Like Angel said, God doesn't write in confusion. There are no contridictions in the bible although it may seem that way to the untrained eye, and the Trinity is not a Bible teaching. The Trinity is a teaching held by Christiandom today and has nothing to do with getting to know God any better anyways. I think getting to know God's name, Jehovah, would be a much more reasonable step in the right direction. It looks as though wmscott is our local forum minister on that subject lol. I was raised Jehovah's Witness and learned a great deal about the Bible. I knew right away that wmscott was a witness, just because he used terms liek Jehovah and armageddon. I know no one group of people who are affiliated with such tight woven beleifs "religion" that is so well researched and explainable as Jehovah's Witnesses. Anyways, if you have a question regarding the Bible that you want answered, I guarantee there is a J dub in your relative area that can answer it. As for the Trinity debate, I'd love to tag in and get messy but it serves no purpose really. I'm only going to repeat what Angel and wmscott have sited so I guess I'll just leave one scripture to see what comes of it.John 14:28 states "You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you wold rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am."Yea, maby wmscott or Angel will explain it to ya...
P.S. wmscott, how long have you been in the truth?
Angel, I was wondering where it is you've learned so much about the bible?

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John 14:28 states "You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you wold rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am."

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Yea, maby wmscott or Angel will explain it to ya...

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I can already anticipate Angel's explanation : "Well it's there, I can see it though you can't, but I can, so there!" LOL!!Here's another explanation:
Jesus says the Father is greater than him, because his position was different than that of God, not His nature. We know (Heb. 2:9) that Jesus was made for a little while lower than the angels, when he became a man. The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10), as a man, as well as God. So Jesus, the man , admits that his Father is greater than him. Also, as a man, he needs to pray to the Father (John 17).In conclusion, Jesus is not denying that he is God. He's simply acknowledging that he is also a man and as a man, he is subject to the laws of God so that he may redeem sinners.Now, your turn:
If Jesus was not God, how come....He is worshiped by men, angels and demons (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33, Jos 5:13-15, Mar 5:6). ?
He is called God, by God (Heb. 1:8) ?
He can do the things God, the Father can ? (John 5:19). ?
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59). ?
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15). ?
He knows all things (John 21:17). ?
He gives eternal life (John 10:28). ?
All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9). ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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I know no one group of people who are affiliated with such tight woven beleifs "religion" that is so well researched and explainable as Jehovah's Witnesses.

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You've obviously never talked to any Mormons. Or Christadelphians. Or 7th Day Adventists.

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Anyways, if you have a question regarding the Bible that you want answered, I guarantee there is a J dub in your relative area that can answer it

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Nope...not in my area....no sireee.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

wormjitsu, I have a minor in religion. I study the Bible, it's origins, and the greek and hebrew translations. I have studied the Bible by myself for a few years. I have studied religions, and went as far as going to the particular place of worship, for those religions. And yes , I have studied with a wonderful family named the Johnsons out of Guntersville, Alabama, who happen to be Jehova Witnesses. As I said before, if I did believe in religion, I would be a Witness, simply because they teach more 'truth' than any other religion.

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Angel

Dear Arachnophilia;If we were discussing how to pronounce the divine name in Hebrew you would mostly be right, but Jehovah is in English. Names change when translated, in English the Hebrew "Y"s become "J"s. Look at all the names and places in the OT that start with the letter "J", in Hebrew they all start with "Y". Similarly the "W" in YHWH becomes a "V" so you have JHVH. The vowels are not known for sure in Hebrew anyway so the English pronunciation of Jehovah is a fair pick and it has been used for hundreds of years in the English language. It appeared four times in the old KJV. The rule for translating names is to use the best known and most traditional translation, the name Jehovah is certainly the best known translation and it is the traditional rendering.Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson

Dear Legend;

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If Jesus was not God, how come....
He is worshiped by men, angels and demons (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33, Jos 5:13-15, Mar 5:6). ?

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In the scriptures you cited in NT the Greek word "proskyneo" is used which can be translated as "worship" or "obeisance". Obeisance such as bowing down before a king, is a sign of respect and is not worship, for example that is what Joshua was doing in Joshua 5:13-15. It is up to the translator to choose which english word is the best way to translate "proskyneo" in each verse where it is used. So you can not use a translator's decision to use the word 'worship' for "proskyneo" to support the Trinity. I can show you a number of Bible translations where the word 'worship' is not used in the verses you cited.

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He is called God, by God (Heb. 1:8) ?

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Another translation error, here is a better rendering of the verse. "But with reference to the Son: "God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness" Hebrews 1:8 NWT Many translations mess this one up, this verse is quoting Psalms 45:6 which is addressing a human king stating that God is his throne. Some translations also mess up this verse in Psalms, but how logical is it for the human king to be called God?

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He can do the things God, the Father can ? (John 5:19). ?

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Jesus was making a point at John 5:19 "Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner." Jesus was replying to an accusation the Jews had raised against him in the preceding verse. John 5:18 "the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God." Notice the "Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them" that occurred in verse 19, Jesus stressed that he only could do what he had seen the Father do, that he was subservient to the Father and was not equal to him. Jesus clearly stated that he was not acting on his own initiative, which he certainly would have been if he was God or part of God.

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He is prayed to (Acts 7:59). ?

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Acts 7:59 "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Stephen made this statement while being stoned to death as he saw Jesus standing in heaven at God's right hand. Basically while looking at Jesus he addressed him and said receive my spirit, or resurrect me at the last day. Stephen of course knew that Jesus had been granted the power to resurrect the dead, so he asked Jesus to do this as he was seeing him in a vision. Stephen's request is not an example of how to pray since in is not the situation when we pray. (we don't see God & Jesus in a vision when we pray) Jesus stated who prayers were to be addressed to. Luke 11:1-2 "Lord, teach us how to pray, just as John also taught his disciples." Then he said to them: "Whenever YOU pray, say, 'Father, . . . ' " Jesus taught that we are to pray to his Father Jehovah God, prayers are not to be addressed to anyone else.

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He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15). ?

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Of course Jesus was sinless, he was perfect. All the angels in heaven are sinless too and they are not God. The angels are without sin since there was no sin until Adam. (Romans 5:12 "as through one man sin entered into the world"

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He knows all things (John 21:17). ?

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Jesus didn't say he knew all things, it was Peter who said "Lord, you know all things; you are aware that I have affection for you." he wasn't making a statement that he felt that Jesus was 'all knowing.' For Jesus had earlier clearly stated that there were things that he didn't know. Matthew 24:36 "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."

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He gives eternal life (John 10:28). ?

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Jesus was given the authority by his Father. John 17:1-2 "Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: "Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life." Now when you are given something, there was a time before when you didn't have it, so there was a time when Jesus did not have the authority. Also, if he was God, why did he have to be given the authority? If he was God he would of had it already.

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All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9). ?

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Colossians 2:9 "because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily." Notice that this 'fullness' is in Jesus because God wants it. Colossians 1:19 "because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him," So it is by an act of God that Jesus has this 'fullness' quality, it is not something that Jesus did himself. What this verse is saying is that Jesus is very much like God, like son, like father the saying goes. Jesus perfectly imitates his father's righteous qualities and has been raised to a very high position of authority. Jesus is a "Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6, but he is not almighty God, he always subjects himself to his Father. Jesus is very much like his Father, but he is not the Father, he is the son.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

Hi Angel --I am getting in late on this discussion. Great topic, one where our little human brains' reach exceeds our grasp, yes?A good starting point is to first concede that God is God and operates outside human confines. In Exodus 3:13 he tells Moses to say to the Israelites "I AM has sent me to you." He is the one and only God. Muslims and others misunderstand how Christians view the Holy Trinity -- there is only one God, but he manifests himself to us in 3 distinct "formats", if you will pardon the inadequate terminology.I noticed you were looking for some Biblical support of the Trinity, so here goes. Even in the beginning God was not alone, not singular.1- The Bible references the Spirit hovering over the waters during Creation (Gen 1:2)2- God refers to himself as "us" in discussing the process of Creation -- "Let us make man in our own image." Gen 1:263- Christ is described as the eternal Word of God made flesh: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In him was life, and that life was the light of men." (John 1:1)4- When Christ became flesh he also made it clear that he is eternal and was there in the Beginning (Rev. 22:12)5- Before he was crucified, Jesus explained the Holy Spirit, saying "When the Spirit of Truth (or Counselor) comes, he will guide you into all truth and he will tell you what is yet to come." (John 16:13)***
These are just a few examples, the Bible is full of similar references. So we believe the three aspects of God -- the unknowable and invisible deity himself, the Holy Spirit who invades and counsels Man's consciousness, and the Word made flesh in Jesus -- exist simultaneously, have existed forever and exist today.P.S: If you would like to see and hear a more eloquent discussion of the Trinity, go to http://www.rfth.org/html_pages/sermonswmarchhi.html and click on "How Can God Be Three In One?" Best viewed with RealPlayer or Windows Media Player. About 30 minutes but well worth it.-AJ

Good post, Wmscott. This I agree with you about and have tried to make this clear several times in the past here in town. Those who insist on using the Hebrew in writing and pronouncing the name, should, to be consistent, then insist that all the NT be read and pronounced in Hebrew. That's nonsense.

no, it's not. "yahweh" and anglocized pronounciation. i can't actually pronounce hebrew names. for instance, i say "zechariah" far differently than my hebrew teacher. i say "Zack-are-rye-ah" and he says "ze-(c)har-yah-ha" with the "ch" sounding like you're coughing up phlem. we don't have a sound in the english language for it.when english people speak the name of the lord, they say "yahweh" yes, they do. and it's wrong. jacob is ya'aqob. israel is yisrael. (why not jisrael?) joshua. is yehoshua. we get the "JAH" sound because some of the first translators were german. they rendered the "YAH" with a j, becuase that's how you say j sound. english people read it wrong.similarly, the name jesus is totally incorrect. jesus's name is the same as joshua's. this is another error caused by translating through other languages. the greeks chose to render the hebrew yehoshua as iesous, which get's render "jesus" in english. in reality, this removes the fact that's it's a play on the name of god. no, the vowels are not known for sure. but we can tell what the word is, what it means, and how it's being used. we can figure out the most likely vowels for the name, and not one possibility is the ones from adonai.adn we thought the earth was flat for thousands of years. the bible even supports it. it doesn't mean it's RIGHT. eh, not exactly. the times it appears are still exactly the same name: yhwh. the translators just chose not to render it "LORD" because the verses got too repeatitive. (two of them would then read "and the Lord LORD" which just sounds silly.) so they chose to try to pronounce it instead. no, it's not. it's to use the BEST translation, with the most contextual support. whether or not it's the one that people are used to. like it or not, there are things WRONG with traditional translations. for instance, the bible never once says "Red Sea." moses parts a body of water that some translator assumed must have been the red sea due to location, and it stuck. but it's technically wrong. ask your local rabbi how hashem is pronounced. they probably won't tell you, but if they do, it will not be "jehovah." the most traditional pronounciation of yhwh, and the oldest is "adonai."

no, but greek would be nice.however, much of the new testament contains greek renderings of hebrew names. i think it is more valid to use the english renderings of the hebrew names than the english renderings of the greek renderings of the hebrew names. i'm a firm believer in the most direct translation possible.

Arachnochnophilia- "adn we thought the earth was flat for thousands of years. the bible even supports it. it doesn't mean it's RIGHT"Acutually no it doesn't as far as im aware..in fact it DOES say the exact opposite stated clearly at Isaiah 40:22. It speaks of the "circle" of the earth, which in the Hebrew language is translated most literally translated "sphere." Spheres are not flat, mind you.

Legend- "You've obviously never talked to any Mormons. Or Christadelphians. Or 7th Day Adventists"Actually I studied with the mormons. Mormons are just plain crazy, no matter how strict you want to claim they are. Jacob Smith is their God, not Jehovah, and I can back that up with evidence from the book of mormon.

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It is HE who is enthroned above the vault of the earth,
-so that its inhabitants seems as grasshoppers;
who spread out the skies like gauze,
-stretched them out like a tent to dwell in

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the word "vault" or "circle" as the kvj renders it comes from a word meaning encircle or enclose. the circle isaiah is very poetically describing is this one:

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God said, "Let there be an exapnse in the midst of the water, that it may separate water from water." God made the expanse, and it separated the water which was below the expanse from the water which was above the expanse

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he's saying that god's throne is upon the waters above the sky. the circle he's describing is heaven (which keeps out the water of the rest of the universe), not the earth. he's describing the sky hanging from this vault like a tent.there's another verse two, that says god hangs the circle on nothing, in space. the void it's talking about is the same void genesis mentions -- water. i figured i'd mention that before you got to it.This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 11-17-2004 08:40 PM

i dated a mormon. they seem like nice people.i don't agree with joseph smith (i think he's an outright fraud) but they do not seem to focus on him as a cult leader per se. he's an important figure, yes, but like a patriarch. not a god.and their theology sounded a lot closer to mine than anything else.