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Author Topic:   How do we know God is "Good"?
lfen
Member (Idle past 4997 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 217 of 305 (160476)
11-17-2004 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 10:16 AM


Re: Irrefutable mike strikes
Are you saying I should not trust God. but rather judge him?
Mike, Mike! You are judging God. Saying God is good that is a judgement. To discriminate good and bad/evil and to discriminate God as good is judging.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 10:16 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 10:52 AM lfen has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4997 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 219 of 305 (160492)
11-17-2004 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 10:16 AM


Re: Irrefutable mike strikes
God would have foreseen these people's sin, and not granted them any babies.
If he had done that why not go all the way and not have granted the parents of the sinners the birth of the babies destined to grow up to be such sinners? This argument only pushes the problem back it's not an excuse.
But Mike, really, the defense is the truth, that is you don't have to defend God as these things never hanppened in the first place, or if they did it was people doing something but excusing themselves on the grounds that God told them to do it and that made it alright.
Ethnic cleansing has appealed to people for a long time. At the time that story was written the moral development or thinking of humanity didn't see anything wrong with it so they didn't see anything wrong with God doing it. Today we have progressed, not God, but humans and many but not all feel ethnic cleaning is wrong and so when it occurs as it so tragically has in recent times voices and even organisations including churches decry it.
The thing is that in attempting to defend the notion that the Bible is inerrant and God is 100% omniscient, good, and powerful you are arguing as an apologist for ethnic cleansing an evil. When you get results of 1=0, or good=evil you should strongly suspect that there is a contradiction inherent in your premise, or your logic.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 10:16 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 11:24 AM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4997 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 248 of 305 (160575)
11-17-2004 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 11:24 AM


Re: Irrefutable mike strikes
If it never happened, as you claim - why do you still blame God?
Um, where was I blaming God? If it never happened as I claimed I was crediting the storyteller. If it did happen I still wasn't blaming God, I was saying the people who did it claimed they were doing God's will to justify the action.
The notion of destruction is somewhat vague. We all die. Disaster strike in all parts of the world. Terrible things happened to cities and people that were not part of the story of Isreal. It's the logic that I am disagreeing with.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 11:24 AM mike the wiz has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4997 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 249 of 305 (160578)
11-17-2004 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 11:46 AM


Re: Irrefutable mike strikes
Please quote were he said there were children in Sodom, or at Noah's flood, and their names, thanks.
Mike, that is a silly defense. If God had decided to sterilize the entire human race, i.e. prevent all birth/conceptions for x years prior to the flood so that no babies would drown he wouldn't have needed a flood to wipe out the human species now would he?
But we don't have any writing by God. These aren't God's words this is a subset of the worlds literature of people claiming to speak for God, or attributing their views to God. It's of historical cultural interest about how people think. Babies die in floods, earth quakes, car accidents. Babies die. Eventually everyone dies guilty or innocent. But what is interesting is that some people have thought God kills the wicked wholesale.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 11:46 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 3:44 PM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4997 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 272 of 305 (160790)
11-17-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by mike the wiz
11-17-2004 3:44 PM


Re: Irrefutable mike strikes
I said it myself on another forum, so it would be hypocritical to blame you or Dan - so I know where you're coming from, yet I now consider myself refuted by those men of faith, though ofcourse - I allow the possibility in my mind, as it's inspired by God but not written by him. I think the flood is explained as the fruit of man's doing. All penalties are the fruit of our doing. Don't believe m
Mike,
Have you a link to this thread, or would you consider inviting them here to debate the flood?
I'd like to know what they said that you feel is more convincing that 1000's of geologist around the world putting in 100,000's hours of study of the earth with reams of interlocking evidence that falsifies the notion of a world wide flood at any time. And no I don't have confirmation of my numbers but have made my estimates extremely conservative.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by mike the wiz, posted 11-17-2004 3:44 PM mike the wiz has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4997 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 275 of 305 (160824)
11-18-2004 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by dpardo
11-17-2004 10:30 PM


Re: Babies in Sodom
The truth is we don't know exactly how much suffering and fear occurred. We can only speculate
Well, yeaaahh.
IMO, God could just as easily (and most likely did) have miracled a quick and painless death for all of the innocent babies that you are so concerned about.
Well, if he could have flooded the entire world and then removed any evidence that a world wide flood had happened and rearranged the layers of the earth to make it look like it does now, then he could have given the babies wings and sent them to another planet circling another star in another galaxies. So yeah you can make up further stories that are no more believable than a world wide flood or all those other mythological tales from Greece, Judah, Persia, wherever.
The point is not what God did. The point is what people like Mike and yourself imagine a "good" God would do based on your willingness to set science aside and choose to believe primitive myths as if they were science and then evade the logical consequences of that self delusion by a series of hypothetical events even more preposterous than the story you are rationalizing.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by dpardo, posted 11-17-2004 10:30 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by dpardo, posted 11-18-2004 12:29 AM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4997 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 277 of 305 (160839)
11-18-2004 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by dpardo
11-18-2004 12:29 AM


Re: Babies in Sodom
And that means we can only say good things about God? and flood and the babies? Your sequence doesn't parse a reply. You learned this techique in apologetics I presume and it's effective in that without sequence objections tend to just dry up and blow away? I am reprimanded for not noting the topic title? Or for not knowing what you will accept as being within the limits of what you wish to deal with? And what have I said to make you realize my theories about the origins of life and the earth? and the etc. being?
I've offered my opinion in this thread on how I think we know God is "Good" and my objections were in sequence to your defense. Your point I take it is I've no right to raise objections even though I've said nothing about my theories of abiogenesis or planetary formation but have spoken about the metaphysics of good and evil and the source of religious beliefs.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by dpardo, posted 11-18-2004 12:29 AM dpardo has not replied

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