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Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Has anyone seen god? | |||||||||||||||||||
arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
go post that one in the trinity thread, i'm sure it'd help a little.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
haha ok nm.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
what about in genesis where god repeatedly appears to the patriarchs?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
But Genesis 32 contradicts Hosea, it is clearly not an angel that Jacob wrestles with there is nothing clear about genesis 32. if it's meant to be god, he's refered to as a man.
There is no mention of an angel in this encounter, and I do not see how an angel could bless anyone. nor does it actually say he was wrestling with god in that particular instance. although the implication is there with the naming of the place. and angels can bless people like anyone else.
The Bible informs us that God does tell lies. He sends false prophest to test Israel's faithfulness, amongst other things. quote: and my favourite
quote: quote: quote: If Yahweh is to be considered a god then He needs to be able to do anything, including telling lies. agreed. i have no problem with it. but people who would hold god to morals set forth for people really get uncomfortable when you tell them that god lies.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
We see here that the whole incident is a vision of Micaiah in which he sees a spirit come forth and declare to God that he will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of Ahab's (unGodly) prophets. Micaiah tells Ahab that his false prophets are lying to him. according to the story, or rather the words of jehoshaphat, god is holding a meeting to try to decided how to get ahab to enter a battle that he will lose. various spirits (angels?) suggest ways to get ahab to do it, but the one that god chooses is the one that says he will lie to ahab. the story is trying to explain reasons that not all prophesies come true, and still keep a perfect god in ultimate command of everything. so, the question is, did god send a messenger with the knowledge that the messenger would lie?
Adam did not finish dying in that day, but he began to die. but the text is very clear.
quote: one more time. in the day he eats of it, he will die. not just die, SURELY die. that day. that's what it says. i don't see how you can evade that. 930 years and one day are not the same. but don't look at me, i'm just reading the text literally.
By virtue of the fact that Adam and Eve were no longer allowed to eat of the tree of life, they started the process of dying and eventually did die. The "fruit" of the tree of life apparently staved off the death process let's look at the text again.
quote: this is talking about a single action. god has to prevent this from ever happening. it's not saying that it's constantly eating of the tree that will keep him alive. he's saying eat of it once, and adam will live for ever. how many times did adam need to eat of the tree of knowledge to become like god? this means that adam was created mortal. if he had eaten of the tree of life before, he'd be a god when he ate of the tree of knowledge. (poor planning on god's part? there's nothing to indicate that adam was previously immortal at all, quite the contrary. notice the text doesn't talk of "starting to die" or "spiritual death" it says only that adam could become immortal. the sin did not bring death into the world. this doctrine is not biblical in the slightlest, no matter what paul says. [editted for typo] This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 11-15-2004 11:36 PM
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
If i'm understand sidelined (and the quotes offered) correctly, the argument is that if any part of god is seen then the bible contradicts itself, as several of those quotes clearly say that it is impossible for anyone to see any part of god. it's quite obvious to anyone who's read a large segment of old testament that one of two things happened: 1. god changed somehow, towards the abstract spiritual entity and away from the physical being god. looking at him became deadly, first just his face, and then any part. 2. peoples' opinions of god changed. i think that considering the bible was written over more than a thousand years, the second one is the safe bet, even if you don't believe a word of the bible. the evolution of the way religious people have thought of the creator has changed rather drastically. i'd like to say that it's clear progression, but it's not. if you arrange the books chronologically in order they're supposed to take place in, god changes somewhat linearly from a physical being into a spiritual one, and then all but disappears. but i suspect that was not the order they were written in. (points for neither side)
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I think it is reasonable to assume that Adam and Eve did eat of the Tree of Life. The text does not say they did not and, since they were allowed to, it's likely they did. i see no idication of that. and as well, if they already ate of the tree of life, why would god worry about them doing it again? you're arguing that effects of one tree wore off, but the sin of another didn't for 4000 years? genesis 3 indicates god preventing a single action, to prevent them from becoming gods.
Revelation 22:1-2 seems to indicate that the Tree of Life in Heaven will yield fruit on a regular basis indicating continuous consumption by the saved. the tree of life was in eden, which is described as having a very real location on earth. it was in mesopotamia. the tree of life in heaven that john is referring to is christ. see, it's symbolism. communion, eating from the tree, leading twelve disciples, having twelve fruits? healing the world? the tree of life is three different things: 1. a literal or symbolic tree in eden, whose fruit made you live forever.2. the design upon which god made adam (see the qabala for that one) 3. a metaphor for jesus, who also gives eternal life.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
You are comparing apples and oranges here. well, not exactly. we're comparing the fruit of the tree or knowledge of good and evil and the fruit of the tree of life. but the joke doesn't sound as funny that way.
One was sin, the other was not. why was god so worried about the one that wasn't sin? why does god tell the animals, and man, to "be fruitful and multiply" before eating of tree of knowledge? why would eating of the tree of life make them immortal is they were not mortal to begin with? god didn't say that eating of the tree of knowledge would make them susceptable to death, he said it would make them dead. this didn't happen, did it?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
the text of that passage says, literally, that abraham saw the lord.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
i don't believe the book of john.
and when it says abraham saw the lord, it says LORD in caps, not Lord in lower case. the difference is between YHWH (god the father) and adonay (lord of anything, really)
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
i'm well aware of the substitution. you may wish to go read this thread: http://EvC Forum: HaShem - Yahweh or Jehovah? -->EvC Forum: HaShem - Yahweh or Jehovah?
יהוה and אדני are not, however, of the same meaning. יהוה or yahweh is the proper name of god. it's play on the word hawah or "to be." so the name yahweh literally means "he who exists." אדני or adonai, however, means lord and denotes some kind of soveriegnty. however, traditionally, when you read יהוה you say "adonai" not "yahweh" and thus the two are interchanged. but they only use his title in avoidance of using the actual name. the two are not of same meaning. This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 11-23-2004 02:23 AM
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
no, i'm a christian.
i don't believe john because it has christ saying things that actually are blasphemy. it reads more like propaganda than actual quotations.
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