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Author Topic:   Dating The Exodus II
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 46 of 56 (150336)
10-16-2004 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Cold Foreign Object
10-15-2004 12:44 AM


CORRECTIONS
Message 43contains a significant edit now plainly noted.
WT

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 47 of 56 (150378)
10-16-2004 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Cold Foreign Object
10-15-2004 4:16 AM


external fixation
Rutherford's chronology has the incalculable benefit of an external astronomical fixation.
But Rutherford and yourself are the ones who can't read a map. Until his other assertions regarding the GP are dealt with I don't see why anyone should believe one just because I can't go there and check it when he's wrong about things that can be checked.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 48 of 56 (150385)
10-16-2004 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Cold Foreign Object
10-15-2004 4:16 AM


Re: Reply to Brian Part 3
Willowtree
Rutherford's chronology has the incalculable benefit of an external astronomical fixation
This I have to hear.What is the astronomical fixation by which Rutherford's chronology claim depends?

Poets say science takes away from the beauty of the stars - mere globs of gas atoms. I too can see the stars on a desert night, and feel them. But do I see less or more? The vastness of the heavens stretches my imagination - stuck on this carousel my little eye can catch one - million - year - old light. A vast pattern - of which I am a part... What is the pattern, or the meaning, or the why? It does not do harm to the mystery to know a little about it. For far more marvelous is the truth than any artists of the past imagined it. Why do the poets of the present not speak of it? What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent? " Richard Feynman

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Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 49 of 56 (150391)
10-16-2004 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by sidelined
10-16-2004 10:23 PM


NOT HERE!
That is, the "Proof Of God" thread sidelined. The height of the GP etc. if you remember.
NO one is to bring that thread into this one. WT has been invited to start specific threads up on each of the claims made there.
So far those examinable start to get shaky when examined. WT has yet to be able to determine how far the GP is from the sea coast. This is after weeks of time to do so. That bodes ill for any attempt to continue the GP threads
Again DO NOT BRING THEM IN HERE.
Anyone who does so will end up with a short sojourne in Boot camp. This is to obviously off topic there that it would be deserved.
(btw -- do you really need such a large signiture? Nice it is but taked up scrolling space)
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 10-16-2004 09:30 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 50 of 56 (150396)
10-16-2004 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by AdminNosy
10-16-2004 10:29 PM


Re: NOT HERE!
AdminNosy
I am sorry Nosy but why is this evidence by Rutherford mentioned in this thread by Willowtree as though it were pertainent to the arguement? I withdraw any further pursuit of the matter if the point about Rutherford made by Willowtree is explained.
Even then if you wish it I will post a new topic in order to adress it.It would help in either case to know just where I might find a reference in Willowtree's posts concerning this.
Your humble servant grovels in abject Fear of your wrath.Please forgive my impertenance. Shall I repent with the usual sacrifice or do you require something exotic this time.Perhaps an endangered species Hmm?
____________________________
Signature withheld by request

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Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by AdminNosy, posted 10-16-2004 11:30 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 54 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-17-2004 2:58 AM sidelined has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 51 of 56 (150403)
10-16-2004 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by sidelined
10-16-2004 10:57 PM


Sacrafice!!
MMM, young, NOT virginal female will do nicely. Please just leave out for pickup and do not damage intransit.
Let me look up that thread.
PROOF OF GOD
Weren't you involved???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by sidelined, posted 10-16-2004 10:57 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by sidelined, posted 10-17-2004 12:31 AM AdminNosy has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 52 of 56 (150421)
10-17-2004 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by AdminNosy
10-16-2004 11:30 PM


Re: Sacrafice!!
AdminNosy
Weren't you involved???
No doubt but let me check with the pondscu..I mean my lawyer.
Yes I was but I thought that since Willowtree had brought it forth to bolster this that I could tackle it within the context of how it was presented.My mistake.
B,B, or R? Canada Post or courier?

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 53 of 56 (150426)
10-17-2004 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by sidelined
10-17-2004 12:31 AM


Re: Sacrafice!!
Hair colour is far from the most important item. Fast delivery is!
That topic may have some relavance here but there are times when such things MUST be dealt with in a separate thread.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 10-16-2004 11:45 PM

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 54 of 56 (150446)
10-17-2004 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by sidelined
10-16-2004 10:57 PM


Re: NOT HERE!
Sidelined writes:
I am sorry Nosy but why is this evidence by Rutherford mentioned in this thread by Willowtree as though it were pertainent to the arguement? I withdraw any further pursuit of the matter if the point about Rutherford made by Willowtree is explained.
WT writes:
Message 26 I realize that my opponents completely disagree. Please feel free to get your equal time as I will let you have the last word concerning the GP.
Sidey:
Go ahead and start that North Star/Thuban topic.
I will participate.
But I am only prepared to defend the Thuban claim and not the Pleiades part.
If you proceed then please remember what I said here.
WT
Dr. Scott: "Everyone has an ax to grind - objective persons declare their bias up-front so their audience knows when it creeps into their conclusions."
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 10-17-2004 02:04 AM

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 55 of 56 (151263)
10-20-2004 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Brian
10-12-2004 6:05 PM


1Kings 6:1 - Means What It Says
Hi Brian:
WHAT'S AT ISSUE
1Kings 6:1
And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.
In behalf of the mid-15th century, I contend the verse says what it means and means what it says. That 480 years was written to mean exactly the said duration of time.
In behalf of the mid-13th century, Brian contends the verse is not to be taken at face value, that the stated 480 years should be summarily rejected and ignored in favor of a 300 year duration.
What needs to be understood about Brian's argument (among many things) is the fact that his position BEGINS with the assumption and premise that the Bible is incorrect.
This approach has the Bible seen wrong before any arguments or evidence is presented. This approach is diametrically opposite of mine. I BEGIN with the assumption and premise that the Bible is correct and should be viewed as such until evidence establishes otherwise.
I only want to say one thing:
Brian's assumption of Biblical incorrectness is a circular argument that can only lead to the Bible always being incorrect in some way. The unfortunate aspect conveyed by this assumption is the illusion of position based upon education instead of bias.
RULES OF BIBLE INTERPRETATION
1) Text without context is error.
2) A passage means what it says and says what it means unless the following are employed:
a) parable
b) analogy
c) imagery
d) typology
e) symbolism
3) God through the Holy Spirit inspired all of its content - this is the claim of the canon. The claim is validated when individual claims therein are evidenced to be true.
Some people view the Bible as evidently contradictory. But this is proven to be fallacious time and time again in the face of the research of the best scholarship. The alleged contradictions are for the most part caused by the ignorance of a vocal minority.
Matthew 5:37 (NIV) Jesus speaking:
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
The above verse means that we are not to say 'yes' if we mean 'no' and we are not to say 'no' if we mean 'yes'.
The Holy Spirit meant what He said in 1Kings 6:1, that 480 years means four hundred and eighty years, as the text spells the words out.
In regards to Item #2 a) thru e) above:
1Kings 6:1 employs no parable or analogy or imagery or typology. The only symbolism contained therein is the words "four hundred and eightieth" which corresponds to the number 480.
Brian writes:
Because much of the Hebrew Bible is schematic and not to be taken at face value
Regarding my claim that the 480 years in 1 Kings 6:1 is an artificial chronology based on 12 x 40 years
The only reason Brain asserts the Bible is not to be taken at face value is because if this is done his theory of a mid-13th century Exodus has no Biblical support.
Here Brian's approach of assuming the Bible incorrect from the start is glaring.
He asserts 1Kings 6:1 is artificial based upon 12 (generations) x 40 years. I know of NO ONE who has argued this nonsense. This is a straw man.
Actually, when the Bible tells us that there were 12 generations from the Exodus to the building of the Temple that is exactly where I get the 12 generations from.
Brian is referring to 1Chronicles 6:3-10, where the passage lists every High Priest from Aaron to Azariah who served as the first High Priest after Temple construction was finished.
The Bible does not mention anything about a 'generation' in 1Chronicles 6 - Brian has invented this artificial timespan for which the mid-13th century theorists use to corrupt the 480 years of 1Kings 6:1.
Lets back up momentarily and examine this rendering according to Item #1 above: "Text without context is error".
What is the context of 1Kings 6:1 ?
According to Brian it is 1Chronicles 6 !
IOW, Brian's context is purely subjective. He must vacate the entire book of 1Kings and by reason assert that there is an invisible asterisk in 1Kings 6:1 which footnotes that 1Chronicles 6 is the context of 1Kings 6:1.
The only context of 1Kings 6:1 is the first verse of the sixth chapter of the book of 1Kings. This is why the chapter sub-division was placed here so this verse begins the chapter/context.
Brian writes:
and we know that 40 years is too long for a generation, 25 is closer, so the hypothesis is quite plausible and has biblical support.
Who is "we" ?
Certainly not me.
Why do we even need this "generations" stuff ?
Answer: Because mid 13th century theorists are asserting 1Kings 6:1 should be re-interpreted according to 1Chronicles 6: 3-10. They then continue to assert that the 12 High Priests between Aaron and Azariah constitutes 12 generations of 25 years each/300 years = what 1Kings 6:1 SHOULD of said.
1Chronicles 6 lists 12 High Priests and says NOTHING about generations or its length. Mid-13th century theorists have decided that the 12 High Priests should be reckoned by a timespan of 25 years each.
Rutherford, reacting to this argument, in the context of refuting it, points out that in the same chapter (1Chronicles 6) that the genealogy of Heman the singer is also given. This genealogy comprises at least 19 individuals/"generations" (to use Brian's terminology).
If we multiply 19 x 25 = 475 (years) which is 5 years shy of 480. Rutherford actually assigned 19.2 months which accounts for the 5 years and equals 480 exactly.
But the point is, using the mid-13th century argument of 25 years per generation, this refutes their reckoning of 1Chronicles 6.
The correct context of 1Chronicles 6 is a listing of High Priests, then listings of other personages and their genealogy. Brian's error is to ASSERT a length of generation which supports his theory and then raid 1Chronicles 6 and say the 12 High Priests times his duration of a generation equals a total amount of years that somehow negates the 480 years of 1Kings 6:1.
It is very reasonable to assign a 40 year reign for a High Priest, but this is a non-sequitor because 1Chronicles 6 says nothing about generations or years. It lists persons and Brian's theory of 12 x 25 is refuted by Heman's genealogy in the same chapter.
Rutherford nor I argue these generation arguments for the mid-15th century. We only argue against the mid-13th century who initiate to erase the unambiguous meaning of 1Kings 6:1's 480 years.
Brian writes:
Another clue to the artificiality of the chronology is that there is also another 480 years from the building of the Temple to the return from Exile! 480 years from the Exodus to Solomon’s Temple and exactly 480 years from Solomon’s building of the Temple to the return from exile, the author clearly wanted to place the building of Solomon’s Temple at the centre of Jewish history. But, exactly 480 years, and exactly another 480 years, a little bit too suspicious, real life isn’t as exact as that. BTW, the Bible also tells us that there was 12 generations from Azariah to the return from Exile, (1 Chronicles 6: 11-15; Ezra 3:2) strange that isn’t it?
There is nothing strange or suspicious if the claim of Divine authorship is true.
Again, the underlying assumption here completely rejects the supernatural control of God.
The entire context of the Bible is Genesis 1:1, "IN THE BEGINNING GOD...."
Your recognition of exactitude evidences the claim of Divine authorship.
Matthew 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
As evidenced above, the same "suspicious" consistency continues.
As for the Temple being in the center of Jewish history - yeah I agree.
Why ?
God allowed the damn thing to be destroyed how many times now, for the sole intent of communicating above all other things that He is not interested dwelling in an inantimate object/place. The N.T. makes clear that we/human beings are the only Temple He is interested in occupying.
Brian writes:
numbers are also symbolic in the Hebrew Bible. 12 is a recurring number, reflecting the Tribes for example, 40 is a general term for a long period of time, so it is a perfectly reasonable interpretation.
I agree that numbers are symbolic.
Biblical Numerology
1 is the number of God and unity.
2 is the number by which things are confirmed.
3 is the number of Divine manifestation.
4 is the number of trial and tribulation and the Earth.
5 is the number of grace.
6 is the number of man and Satan.
7 is the number of Divine completion.
8 is the number of new beginnings.
9 is Divine manifestation maximized (3 x 3).
10 is the number of human responsibility.
11 (I prefer to skip).
12 is the number of perfect government.
40 equals 4 (trial/tribulation) x 10 (human repsonsibility) = the length of the Wilderness Journey (failed trial), or Jesus being tempted of Satan 40 days and 40 nights = successful trial, or Moses in the Mount recieving the Law 40 days and 40 nights = successful for him but a failed test for the Israelites who forgot God and crafted a molten calf.
Your rendering of 40 as a long period of time is error altogether.
THERE IS NO ONE SET LENGTH OF TIME FOR A BIBLICAL GENERATION.
IChronicles 7:22-29 lists 10 generations between Ephraim (son of Joseph) and Joshua the son of Nun. This particular reckoning would average a 40 year generation based on a 400 year sojourn in Egypt.
But Genesis 15:13-16 states 4 generations which corresponds with the same 400 year duration = 100 year generation.
The point is that this generation stuff is subjective to the context of the passage only and is not intended to erase a plainly stated length of time - 480 years.
As for your scattered Dr. Hall points and Pithom and Ramesses points I will address those in a post that is more applicable to these issues.
My schedule is looking more and more unfriendly to EvC time. But I will continue as time allows as I know you will too.
sincerely,
WT

This message is a reply to:
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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 56 of 56 (158645)
11-12-2004 8:19 AM


Thread copied to the Dating The Exodus II thread in the Boot Camp forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

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