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Author | Topic: Exactly 'HOW' intelligent must a Designer be ? | |||||||||||||||||||
frank Inactive Member |
OK, so we differ in how we interpret observations.
I will not argue for/against your faith. It is something very personal and hope you do rejoice in it. As for your last question:
quote: For myself, no, I can't answer that question. But I am glad to read that you can see IC written all over it, as this would assume you understand IC. I have been following another thread on what is ID and must admit I am confused as to exactly what is ID/IC. Are they the same ? Perhaps you would like to post an explanation there. Clear Skies ! Frank
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: OK How do you tell the difference between a Intelligently-Designed system/structure and a naturally-occurring one that we either: don't understand yet, or don't have the capacity to understand? Saying something like, "Nobody knows how X could have happened naturally, so this has ID written all over it" is merely a God of the Gaps argument, and not meaningful. It is exactly the same argument as "We don't really know what makes the sun go across the sky every day, so Apollo must pull it across in his firey chariot." So, how can we tell the difference? ------------------"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow- minded." -Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"
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Philip Member (Idle past 4752 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
quote: ALL enzymes (I believe ALL) have active site force vectors that are peculiar enough to be ICs: they seem impossible to incrementally develop, lest their beneficial catalytic effects are rendered destroyed via every tiny mutated step along the way of evolution (any proposed ToE, that is). An IC by definition is something that is: irreducible in its complexity, requiring a high pattern of arrangement at the start. A fixed IC (FIC) is similar: the IC cannot be broken down without destroying the function altogether. Perhaps most ICs are FICs. ID is merely the cause of ICs. I have a hard time believe you Frank, and you other empiricists, if and when you equate cause with effect. But redemptive design (RD) under my so-called Gospel scheme seems even more conspicuous. Now, RDs are not necessarily ICs in your empirical sense, Frank. RD's may be speculated to have evolved via a God-of-the-Gaps ToE, or even by an atheistic ToE, and not just my YEC/ID scheme For example:1) A super-enzyme repairs/restores deleterious events and/or sequences during DNA replication. 2) A carbon atom contains the precise quantum forces to negotiate all organic and biochemistry AD INFINATUM. 3) Light has billions of other functions besides eliminating darkness. 4) The earth with its precise proportion(s) of water, its distance from the sun, its tilt, its complex chemistry, atmosphere, geology and hosts of other coincidentals, enables it to sustain life. Such innumerable necessary coincidentals parsimoniously seem to cry out RD and ID. 5) The innumerable excellencies of astronomy, the patterns, arrangements, harmonies, symmetries, proportions, etc. of those shiny spherical orbs, cry out ID, RD, and perhaps IC, that is, if our empirical abstractions don't bog down our grosser holistic thoughts. --The times and seasons themselves seem redemptive paradoxes: The cold winter clears away insect contagions while the hot summer enables beneficial harvests. 6) Oceanic and Zoological excellencies, with their complex and orderly arrangements of ecosystems, organismic functions, physiologies, sociologies, etc. fill the libraries and our psyche's with RD data. 7) Man (and Woman) with psyches and minds that are as empirically and metaphysically mysterious as a phenomenon can get: Yet filled with metaphysical excellencies: A man's 10 fingers each has a harmonizing protocol (if you will) when it types, plays the piano, repairs computers, extracts cultures, drives the hot-rod, or whatever. So then, in sum; the data of these IC excellencies (in my less than meager hypothetical opinion) declare the glory of ID and RD, and their cause-effect relationship thereof.
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monkenstick Inactive Member |
phil, do you mind if I say that what you've said is all very nice, but it isn't in any way scientific.
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Philip Member (Idle past 4752 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
S: How do you tell the difference between a Intelligently-Designed system/structure and a naturally-occurring one that we either:
don't understand yet, or don't have the capacity to understand? P: Without begging defintions at this point. Intelligently-Designed system/structures, IDSs (if you will) and naturally-occurring system/structures, NOS's seem to obviously overlap in many of their apparent existences. In other words: A cow is a cow both because its gene pool was established (designed in my Gospel scheme) and reproduced. We are far from understanding physiological and microbiological phenomena of cows. Perhaps we have 1 or 2% of this knowledge in books at this time. But, Shraf, for me to tell you the difference between phenomenal IDSs and NOSs using necessary (?) empirical terms is vexing, since we don't understand them in empirical detail. I've always appealed (empirically or metaphysically) to cause-effect relations. IDS's and NOS's are kin enough: in the reproductive events of their evolution (not the mega-ToE) they reflect much of the original and wonderful gene pool. I say wonderful because all IDS/NOS entities are intriguing in many of their qualitative and quantitative arrangements, patterns, proportions, etc. Moreover, your empiricist faith vs. my metaphysicist faith is perhaps the only difference between IDS's and NOS's. Can we not admit that we are stuck with both schemes, Shraf? Are they not both real and valid, the empiricist and the metaphysicist schemes and their respective NOS's and IDS's. Why should I deny the affective component of your psyche's abstractions and call them empirical (which they certainly are not)? You, your psyche and spirit, are a real albeit empirically complex invisible entity in this world. I only know you by faith. I don't even care what you look like. Its you soul I would commune and reckon with; not the bio-mental phenomenon you'd perhaps have us to be. S: Saying something like, "Nobody knows how X could have happened naturally, so this has ID written all over it" is merely a God of the Gaps argument, and not meaningful. P: Who said the God of the Gaps argument is not meaninful. The OEC? the theistic-Evo? the YEC? Or the empiricist only? Or, perhaps, am I using the term God of the Gaps indiscriminately? I've been using the term God-of-the-gaps gleefully. Why not? A Christian name is grace. Though a YEC, EVERY event and object must have God's grace to explain its existence. Light, energy, quantum physics, etc., although somewhat predictable scientifically, are not really understood (as you probably agree). Do you think these phenomena will ever be understood to the point that they are deemed non-miraculous, non-benevolent, non-redemptive, non-consoling, non-mysterious, etc.? Is not the simplest piece of dirt a great mystery: its significant neutron forces for example. What really binds these carbonacious and inorganic molecules together in the soil, Shraf? Mere coincidental and fortuitous arbitrary empirical sub-atomic and quantum energies? Or is there a redeeming God in his grace holding it all together? The evidences require faith-biased hypotheses either way:The empiricist will only logically abstract an event like Spock struggling against his emotions. The ID'st will appear foolish to himself, to the stoic empiricist, and to his can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees contemporaries. S: It is exactly the same argument as "We don't really know what makes the sun go across the sky every day, so Apollo must pull it across in his firey chariot." ... So, how can we tell the difference? P: Scriptures are filled with vicarious illustrations of grace (despite our mis/understandings of natural events). The scriptures play on this Apollo-like God-of-the-Gaps, but in a more redemptive (Christ-like) illustration. Consider Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The Holy Bible : King James Version. (Ps 19:1-6). Shraf, the Greeks were wisest in their day; perhaps their Apollo devolved from this Psalm. Looks fairly correlated to me. But your point being that mythology, Christianity, Islam, religion, Buddhism, Voodoo, and all metaphysical explanations of life's mysteries are often a lie is not always true: A person's understanding (as you admit) is minimal, despite his/her Greek-like wisdom. His Apollo-like perspective of Christ, or Moon-God (Islam) perspective of Christ, or 'Jesus'-like perspective of Christ may more accurately depict the redemptive phenonenon of the sun in the sky, than the narrow-minded empiricist ever will at Guntersville High School. My question is: Who's description of the sun is the most redemptive, beneficial, inspiring, helpful, and loving, while respecting astronomical science, and is thus the most learned and/or appreciative?
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Philip Member (Idle past 4752 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
quote: Don't mind; thanks for your reply.Scientific implies hypothesis, data-evaluation, making deductions based on the data, coming to conclusions and discussions. What is your scientific way; and/or where did I violate your or someone's definition of science.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: Nature Vs Nurture is always a tricky one, but in this case itdoes seem that sufficient 'hearing' of intonation is not something that can be learned in later life. Doesn't mean it's all genetic, but would suggest a geneticbias ... in my opinion any how ... not saying I'm right. quote: In what way? Music is a 'language' with only eigth letters eachsubject to one accent (sharp/flat they are the same really since Eb is just D#) and a variable period (1/2, 1, 2, or four beats). Intonation can convey huge amounts of information to therecipient ... the same words, even in english, can be humerous, insulting, angry, sad, etc. only differentiated by the 'way' that they are said (I get into trouble with my wife over many inoccent statements ... becuase of the way I said it!) quote: What do you mean by biological mechanism? They all happenin the brain ... isn't that biological? quote: Yes, you can right image/speech recognition programs (that's whyit takes so long for the pumps to activate in some UK filling stations!!), but the major difference between a computer and a brain (human or otherwise) is that it is fixed, and cannot create new programming for itself ... it cannot learn. Learning programs to date, do not really learn, becuase we donot fully understand what learning is ... maybe one-day though.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: And these eight letters are basically a function of the physical properties of sound. There are only a few stable notes. Intereference blurs most frequencies. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
That was my point ... music isn't that complex.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I was adding too, not detracting from... ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Tell the truth I only replied to get the 'Yes' out
of the replies waiting box A way of cancelling that would be good
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I second that motion. Oh no.... now you have to reply again. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Drat!!
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Rationalist Inactive Member |
quote: Regardless of your hopeful appeal to a future that will somehow save your beliefs.. what you claim clearly flies in the face of all the knowledge about biology that we do have. We know that life and reproduction are biomechanical processes, governed by the forces of chemistry. We know that this biomechanical process implements through genetic inheritance a form of mathematical optimization algorithm, and we know how these types of evolutionary algorithms commonly produce "apparent" irreducible complexity that isn't really irreducible at all. If you see a process which is nominally equivalent to the one in nature that regularly produces irreducible complexity.. how can you claim that the natural process can not do the same. We even know how these supposed "irreducible" systems are made.. through scaffolding, multiple function and shifts in function. In fact it is so obvious that these common evolutionary processes are responsible for the "appearance" of irreducible complexity that the argument has been considered settled quite a long while ago. It is only through creationists continuous self imposed ignorance of scaffolding and change in function that the argument constantly seems to ressurect itself in new forms.
quote: What evidence do you have of an 'original wonderful gene pool'. Any at all?
quote: Empiricism is not faith.. it is well justified belief supported by hard physical evidence. If you are standing next to a mountain, and you see it and can touch it.. is it "faith" that tells you there is a mountain behind you. Of course not. Empirical evidence is evidence which you can see and touch, and that evidence necessarily constrains the sort of inferences and deductions that can be made from it. Needless to say, that evidence is not at all consistent with a miraculous 6 day creation, it stands in stark contradiction to it.
quote: Who says so? You? Why should we believe you? Can you prove that the evidence for evolution and for an old earth is not empirical, that the amount of evidence, and the fact that it cross correlates providing multiple lines of evidence for the same conclusion is false, or that the problems it poses to a miraculous creation are not contradictions? Simply claiming that it the evidence is not empirical evidence, or it doesn't clearly favor a particular conclusion is not enough.
quote: This is all nonsensical mumbo jumbo. Do you have even a shred of evidence for any of this?
quote: So your argument is that every object and every process is by the grace of God. But how can you prove this to be the case? Isn't this merely a case of making an unsupported claim with absolutely no evidence to back it up? Well, I think that the processes you describe are not miraculous, not redemptive, and have nothing to do with God. Can you prove me wrong?
quote: Or are there two Gods holding it together, or three? How about the angels holding it together for God. Or perhaps there is an unthinking benevolent magical force in the universe that is holding it together. It really doesn't take a lot of imagination to come up with a half dozen heady sounding poetic ideas as to the wonderous spiritual nature of the universe. But they are merely fictions created to make us feel good, and have absolutely no basis in reality at all.
quote: And the superstitious spiritualist will concoct dozens of flowery suger laden pronouncements. The differences is the empiricists claims and advice and ideas tend to work better in the real world than the shamans or witch doctors.
quote: Who precisely can't see the forest for the trees?
quote: Ah, the bible mentions the Sun, therefore there must be a connection. Sure.
quote: So you're saying that the Sun is pulled across the sky by a chariot? And you're claiming that this explanation is just as good as the scientific explanation? I don't think so.
quote: So, what you're saying is that the best measure of truth is that which makes us feel nice, regardless of any evidence or reason? I think that is very revealing.
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Philip Member (Idle past 4752 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
Without responding too indepth.
1) We both know that scaffolding is a crutch term for enzymatic evolutions to become viable. I reject it as another irrational hopeful monster theory. 2) Empirical reality is not rational reality nor metaphysical reality. Equating them in any way is fallacious. 3) My metaphysical schemes are far more real than your empirical schemes in my reality of the cosmos. While your empirical scheme may in fact be more real to you, I reject it for rational reasons: Namely, there are too many excellencies (harmonies, symmetries, and proportions) that invoke a gospel-scheme, too many redemptive observations on all cosmic levels (which you clearly fail to see), and empirical entropic forces of devolution that must be rationally reckoned with.
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