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Author Topic:   a paper critique on evolution
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 16 of 24 (78837)
01-16-2004 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by k.kslick
01-15-2004 11:05 PM


Re: ok...
k.kslick
We do not know the mechanism as yet that allowed for the initial start of life. There are ways in which it can happen but to know the very mechanism is going to require further refinements in our knowledge. However, the mechanism by which a cell holds the second law at bay is known and is a result of the laws of chemistry.The heat that your body produces is a result of the chemistry of your body.
I am running out of time here as I must be off to work but you can if you wish check this website until I get back this evening.
entropysimple.com -
I will talk to you then. Good day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by k.kslick, posted 01-15-2004 11:05 PM k.kslick has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 17 of 24 (79013)
01-17-2004 7:20 AM


k.kslick.
Hey buddy just a bump to keep the communication lines open and hopefully clear up any misrepresentations about thermodynamics that appear to have been presented to you.It is the weekend however and perhaps you are otherwise occupied. Talk to you later.

"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde

  
neil88
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 24 (92379)
03-14-2004 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by k.kslick
01-15-2004 10:15 PM


Re: ok...
Regarding the second law of thermodynamics ( correct me if I am wrong ), but as I understand it, in the absence of any energy input into a system, the system will move to a state of higher entropy - that is more disorder.
For example,(1) your house will start to fall apart unless you input energy to it in the form of work ( eg, you re-putty the windows before they fall out ).
Or (2) your car will come to a stop if you do not input energy in the form of gasoline.
Now in the case of examples 1 and 2, and this probably applies to all examples on Earth, the ultimate input of this energy is from the sun.
In the case of (1), the repairman eats vegetables or meat to obtain the energy, which ultimately come from plant photosynthesis ( ie, from the sun ).
In the case of(2), petroleum is formed by the breakdown of animal and plant material in the rocks. Thus the source again is the sun.
So it seams to me that the Earth has an input of energy from the sun, without which the Earth and all its systems would indeed slide into disorder. I think the current state of the Earth is only temporary because eventually the sun will cease to provide energy and the Earth will decline into disorder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by k.kslick, posted 01-15-2004 10:15 PM k.kslick has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Melchior, posted 03-14-2004 7:10 AM neil88 has not replied
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 03-14-2004 7:29 AM neil88 has not replied
 Message 21 by Brad McFall, posted 08-31-2004 12:18 PM neil88 has not replied

  
Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 24 (92380)
03-14-2004 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by neil88
03-14-2004 6:53 AM


Re: ok...
You might want to think over your number 2 again. Fuel for a car is used for moving it about. It does nothing to counter entropy. Other energy/effort in form of maintenance is required to keep it 'shiny'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by neil88, posted 03-14-2004 6:53 AM neil88 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 20 of 24 (92385)
03-14-2004 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by neil88
03-14-2004 6:53 AM


The Trouble With Thermodynamic Examples
I agree with your basic argument, and I'm only writing about your examples. Examples from the everyday about the degree of entropy of systems like a house or car are good illustration but should only be taken as analogies. Human perceptions of order and disorder such as might be applied to a room's degree of untidiness don't really correspond to entropy. 2LOT is a chemical measure of disorder, and thermodynamically speaking the molecules in your sweaters don't really care if they're lying disheveled in a heap or neatly folded in a drawer. If the system is you and an untidy room, then after you clean it for an hour the entropy has probably increased, no matter how spic and span the result.
On the other hand, if your system is a car, then adding 10 gallons of a highly organized and energetic substance like gasoline to your system undoubtedly decreases the entropy.
One also can't assume that adding heat to a system decreases entropy. Take a beautiful ice sculpture and heat it into steam. Ice has a nicely organized crystalline structure (the beauty of the sculpture is for the most part irrelevant to thermodynamic considerations), while steam is random water molecules shooting every which way. I don't actually know the thermodynamic answer for this one in terms of entropy, and only mention it as an example of how difficult entropic determinations can be in any but the most simple of configurations.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 21 of 24 (138461)
08-31-2004 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by neil88
03-14-2004 6:53 AM


Re: ok...
One cant assume that adding heat decreases the contribution from the Sun but if the SHAPE of the electron orbitals of living matter depend on thermal currents CHANGING titration equilibria IN THE TIME it takes light to appear at Earth then what Percy said might be modifiable but this is certainly not the paper for a teenager to write.

This message is a reply to:
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Mr. Bound
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 24 (149625)
10-13-2004 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by k.kslick
01-15-2004 11:05 PM


Re: ok...
You know when you buy one of those giant bags of pretzels, and when you open it the nice big ones are at the top, and when you're nearly done all the nasty little broken pices are left at the bottom? Sucks doesn't it? Well it sure sucks for you because it's ordered itself!!! Now a question for you, why don't bags of pretzels violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics according to your definition? Hmmm?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by k.kslick, posted 01-15-2004 11:05 PM k.kslick has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 23 of 24 (150019)
10-14-2004 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by crashfrog
01-15-2004 11:21 PM


Here's a hint - thermodynamically speaking, a completed house is less ordered than sorted piles of lumber on the lawn. It's true!
i dunno about you, but the only part of the construction of MY house that has anything to do with thermodynamics was the air-conditioning.
and possibly the insulation.

This message is a reply to:
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MrPhy42
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 24 (150021)
10-14-2004 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by k.kslick
01-15-2004 10:15 PM


Re: ok...
As usual, a great source of information... (regarding the send law of thermodynamics)Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by k.kslick, posted 01-15-2004 10:15 PM k.kslick has not replied

  
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