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Author Topic:   The Bible on Sex, Love, and Marriage
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 302 (149672)
10-13-2004 1:17 PM


Spun off from Does God Have Free Will? to avoid topic drift.
asciikerr writes:
Even if they don't believe in God, they can't deny that the Bible does hold all of the answers to their questions; Love, Marriage, Sex, etc.
Dan writes:
It's usually been my experience that strict adherence to the Bible results in an exceptionally unhealthy attitude towards sex, if not love and marriage as well.
asciikerr writes:
I'm not too sure what kind of experience that is, if anything the Bible is full of great and wonderful things concerning Marriage. It answers questions like why Man & Women are at each others throats, what God's purpose for our marriage is, how love and sex play a vital role in marriage and so much more. I think those that follow this strict adherence don't really understand what it says. This could be a separate topic all together, or we could hit some of the finer points or questions. You could read some of the stuff I've wrote on the matter and tell me what you think, or we can discuss it on a new thread.
No offense, but these plans of God to which you refer are pretty much the sort of unhealthy attitude I'm talking about. Leaving aside the topics of sex and love for the moment (but only for the moment), your writings seem to connote an inherent trait in women to seek dominance over men, and a God-given mandate for men to attain dominance over women.
The implication of this, of course, is that any given woman is, by her very nature, going against the will of God.
The further implication is that marriage, by its very nature, is a battlefield. Sure, you lay out a plan for marriage to work despite its being a battlefield, but that plan is simply that one side has to surrender. This, of course, does not change the husband and wife being forced into the role of adversaries, it only proclaims one the victor.
It may be my own craziness, but I don't see this as a particularly healthy view, conducive to a lifelong partnership.
Lastly, I don't know if you're aware of the inherent mysoginy of your writing. True, you state that God created man and woman equal, but within the same paragraph you clearly denote man as "serving the function of headship", and woman as "functioning as a submissive helper", which pretty much blasts out any ideas of equality.
Don't know about you, guy, but I like to meet girls who are capable of being more than my submissive helper. They're generally smarter and more interesting. And if they're capable of being more, then why on Earth would I want them to act at anything less than their full potential?
Still waiting for the Bible's helpful advice on love and sex.

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2004 4:57 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 4 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2004 5:06 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 67 by asciikerr, posted 10-19-2004 12:13 AM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 196 by Lizard Breath, posted 10-22-2004 2:19 PM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 206 by Lizard Breath, posted 10-22-2004 8:22 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 246 by Lizard Breath, posted 10-24-2004 7:40 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 302 (149677)
10-13-2004 1:44 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by dpardo, posted 10-13-2004 6:09 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 3 of 302 (149722)
10-13-2004 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dan Carroll
10-13-2004 1:17 PM


here's some healthy attitudes for you:
1Cr 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
1Cr 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
ok, so marriage is bad in general. just marry for sex, so that you don't piss off god and go to hell. but sex is strongly disadvised.
Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
so, even though sex is bad, the only good thing a woman can do, and the only way she can be saved is by popping out babies. as for everything else, well, she should shut up, stay at home, and do dishes. (as implied in the greek)
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
looking is just as bad as adultery.
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
well, being gay is bad too, but i particularly like the phrase "use of women"
1Cr 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1Cr 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Cr 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
burkas anyone? this one continues:
1Cr 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Cr 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
sounds like a fun marriage.
Lev 15:17 And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.
forced to agree with this one. semen can be a BITCH to get out.
Lev 15:19 And if a woman have an issue, [and] her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
is it polite to ask a girl if she's menstruating before i shake her hand?
Gen 38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled [it] on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
Gen 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
don't pull out.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 10-13-2004 04:07 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-13-2004 1:17 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 4 of 302 (149726)
10-13-2004 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dan Carroll
10-13-2004 1:17 PM


[merged by edit]
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 10-13-2004 04:07 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-13-2004 1:17 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 302 (149735)
10-13-2004 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminAsgara
10-13-2004 1:44 PM


Hi Dan,
You wrote:
The further implication is that marriage, by its very nature, is a battlefield. Sure, you lay out a plan for marriage to work despite its being a battlefield, but that plan is simply that one side has to surrender. This, of course, does not change the husband and wife being forced into the role of adversaries, it only proclaims one the victor.
It may be my own craziness, but I don't see this as a particularly healthy view, conducive to a lifelong partnership.
The husband and the wife are not forced into the role of adversaries.
The husband and wife, in a marriage, are a team. The team has to have a leader so that they can function effectively together. The bible declares that the husband is the person that God has chosen to be the leader.
In a football team, for example, there are quarterbacks, runningbacks, and receivers, etc. The quarterback decides what plays are going to be run (based on instruction from the coach), and the team executes that play. The quarterback is not superior to the runningback, receiver or other players but they need to have a system in place in order to function effectively, right?
Someone has to be able to decide, ultimately, what course of action the team is going to take. Can the team decide to take two different courses of action and have success?
Ideally, any good husband is going to listen to counsel from his wife concerning the affairs of the marriage. Especially in areas where the wife's knowledge/ability exceeds the husband's. But, ultimately, if they disagree on the course of action to take, the husband, the bible claims, is to have the final say.
Please realize, though, that this system is given with the implication that both the husband and wife are living in accordance with the teachings of the bible. Most importantly, they have to put God as the number one priority in their lives, followed by spouse, then children, and so on. It is the prioritizing of God as the focus of each person's life that allows husbands and wives to in turn love each other, their children, and everyone else as God commands us to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminAsgara, posted 10-13-2004 1:44 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-13-2004 6:21 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 18 by arachnophilia, posted 10-14-2004 10:03 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 22 by nator, posted 10-15-2004 8:50 AM dpardo has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 302 (149736)
10-13-2004 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by dpardo
10-13-2004 6:09 PM


The husband and the wife are not forced into the role of adversaries.
Well, if you look at the link I was responding to, they are necessarily adversaries. At least according to the logic contained therein. But let's look at your thoughts too.
In a football team
In a football team, there are specific rules of the game, and roles that are established simply by virtue of those rules. It's not that an effective team can't function without everyone fulfilling those roles... it's simply that if they don't, you're not playing football.
Marriage comes with no such rules. Any given marriage is what you make of it. (The vast number of successful non-Christian marriages should be proof enough of this.) The analogy doesn't hold up.

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by dpardo, posted 10-13-2004 6:09 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by dpardo, posted 10-13-2004 7:08 PM Dan Carroll has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 302 (149738)
10-13-2004 6:24 PM


Does anyone think the bible seeks to belittle women or teaches a doctrine of inferiority?
I invite you to listen to a brief study from Dr. R.C. Sproul on what the bible teaches concerning husbands and wives.
Ligonier Ministries — Renew your mind.

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-13-2004 6:30 PM dpardo has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 302 (149739)
10-13-2004 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by dpardo
10-13-2004 6:24 PM


Link didn't work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by dpardo, posted 10-13-2004 6:24 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by dpardo, posted 10-13-2004 6:51 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 302 (149743)
10-13-2004 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dan Carroll
10-13-2004 6:30 PM


Hmmm.
How about this one:
Page Not Found | Ligonier Ministries
Then scroll down and click on:
The Christian Man in the Home -part 1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-13-2004 6:30 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 10 of 302 (149746)
10-13-2004 7:08 PM


Does anyone think the bible seeks to belittle women or teaches a doctrine of inferiority?
If you read the verses that Arach. supplied above, there's no "think" about it. Women are second-class, both in the OT and to at least one of the guys that wrote under the name of Paul. The Book of Judith is just about the only place where women get a decent story told, and it's in the Apocrypha, so fundies don't accept it, anyway.

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by arachnophilia, posted 10-14-2004 10:11 PM Coragyps has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 302 (149747)
10-13-2004 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dan Carroll
10-13-2004 6:21 PM


Hi Dan Carroll,
You wrote:
Marriage comes with no such rules. Any given marriage is what you make of it. (The vast number of successful non-Christian marriages should be proof enough of this.) The analogy doesn't hold up.
I don't claim that Christian marriages will, by default, be any more successful than non-Christian marriages. My point is, that to the extent that we follow God's plan for marriage, our marriages will be successful, lasting, and fulfilling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-13-2004 6:21 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Dr Jack, posted 10-14-2004 6:58 AM dpardo has not replied
 Message 14 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-14-2004 10:26 AM dpardo has not replied

Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 302 (149787)
10-13-2004 10:19 PM


Caveat #1 regarding marriage:
Proverbs 21:19, "It is better to dwell in the wilderness than with a contentious and angry woman." (KJV)
Modern translation: If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
Amlodhi

Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 13 of 302 (149832)
10-14-2004 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by dpardo
10-13-2004 7:08 PM


Read this research:
U.S. divorce rates: for various faith groups, age groups and geographical areas
Christians, and Jews, have a worse record for marital breakdown than do agnostics and atheists. Which group do you expect will be more likely to have been following biblical teaching on marriage?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by dpardo, posted 10-13-2004 7:08 PM dpardo has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 302 (149862)
10-14-2004 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by dpardo
10-13-2004 7:08 PM


I don't claim that Christian marriages will, by default, be any more successful than non-Christian marriages.
Well, that's not strictly true. You did say, ironically enough, in the Intellectual Dishonesty thread, that not following God's plan would doom a marriage to failure from the start.
If you've changed your mind on this, that's cool. But if you could clarify, I'd appreciate it.
My point is, that to the extent that we follow God's plan for marriage, our marriages will be successful, lasting, and fulfilling.
If it's what both people want, I have no problem with two consenting adults finding happiness through the Bible's marriage-outline.
I also have no problem with two consenting adults finding happiness through a marriage based around 24/7 BDSM. I can't say I think it'd be the healthiest way to go through one's whole life, but hey... whatever works for them.
We've heard quite a bit on marriage... I'm not looking to abandon it, but can anyone point us to the Bible's good advice on sex and love? We haven't heard from asciikerr yet... any word on that?

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by dpardo, posted 10-13-2004 7:08 PM dpardo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by MrHambre, posted 10-14-2004 10:58 AM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 66 by asciikerr, posted 10-18-2004 11:07 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 15 of 302 (149871)
10-14-2004 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dan Carroll
10-14-2004 10:26 AM


Dan,
quote:
I also have no problem with two consenting adults finding happiness through a marriage based around 24/7 BDSM.
Is that a yes?
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-14-2004 10:26 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-14-2004 11:34 AM MrHambre has not replied

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