Prophecy for Buzsaw

Yeah, tattoos on the hand or forehead of a specific number.That's not how it's going to be implemented, so the prophecy fails on that count alone. I wasn't talking about shells and beads, Buz. I was talking about things like merchant exchange notes, which were in use at the time. Numerical abstractions of currency exchange, like our own paper money.See, this is why you do so poorly in these prophecy threads. Instead of doing some basic research about the time period, you assume that everybody who lived before you was a stupendous idiot and therefore, any prediction that seems the least accurate must have been "supernatural."Instead of embarassing yourself with your arrogant, patrician dismissal of the intelligence of your ancestors, why don't you do a little research? You might learn something. What do you mean, "no"? You're going to tell me that, in fact, you can eat gold? That you can make houses out of it? Never mind, of course, that the vast, vast majority of coinage familiar to the average person would not have been gold, but rather, other, less valuable metals like copper.Precious metals, like all money, are simply stand-ins for universal needs. That's the function of currency, Buz. It's an agreed-upon unit of barter exchange. Before metals, exchanges were measured in, say, oxes or sheep, even if these weren't the items being exchanged. Oh, certainly, with the limits of communication avaliable at the time.But impossible to imagine? How dumb do you think they were? But yet, that doesn't mean the Bible predicts electronics. Only that someone was able to extrapolate a trend that had been 400 years in the making. That's not supernatural, that's sense.

Say what? Nothing is said about tattoos on the hand or forehead in the prophecy.?? So how so does it fail on that account? Ok, let's see a link or something as to what exactly you're talking about. It sounds to me like nothing more than a promisary note which people have used for a long time. The note was, I would assume, used along with coins, which would not be the case in the prophecy situation. Poorly, Froggy? Like when? OK Smartoff, let's see the evidence of your research and exactly how this moneyless system worked. Were there no coins atol in the economy? No, of course you can't eat precious metals, but for a long time, they've been able to buy eats and make houses for the holders of such. Same with oxen and sheep. Ahah!! You are getting around now, to agree that modern tech HAD TO COME INTO PLAY FIRST Now isn't that what I've been contending all along? And the people of the time of the prophecy had no remote idea of the tech that has come into play for this prophecy to become a reality. Nice to see we're coming together on this crucial crux. Not dumb atol, but you'n me know that it took milleniums for mankind to come up with something for realistic fulfillment don't we? Please stay with my point, that the Bible presented a prophecy that would require electronics for fulfillment. This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-27-2004 12:32 AM

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

It says the mark will be on the hand or the forehead:

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Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead,

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and it tells us what the mark is:

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so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

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Now, chips implanted under the skin or whatever aren't marks; you can't see them. The only kind of permanent mark you can put on the skin is a tattoo. Right, official promissary notes. Many times a enconomy based soley on these notes developed among merchants; we actually use such a system now. Even in England the paper money still promises to pay the bearer the "sum of five pounds" or whatever. No, the notes were used in leiu of coins. Much like accounts had been kept in lieu of coins for 400 years at the time, in some situations. Like now. The only reason you conclude "supernatural" basis for this garbage is because of your staggering ignorance of monetary history. Haven't made that claim. But, the claim I have made, and supported, is that in certain specific situations, accounts were kept and moneys exchanged entirely on paper, and that it would have taken no feat of supernatural precognition, only all-too-human cleverness, to have observed this and proposed that such a system would increase in applicability.But look, you've done an incredible disservice to your so-called "prophecy" by not actually quoting it. Let me quote it in it's entirety, which you have not done:

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Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

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Now, show me in there where it says "cashless economy"? Show me in there where it says "electronic banking"? Hell, show me in there where it says that coins won't be in use. All I see that it says is that you'll get a mark, and if you don't have the mark, you won't be allowed to buy things. That's not a prediction that money will fall out of favor. Yes, Buz, but ask yourself how that works. Why would anyone accept gold to give someone a perfectly good ox?Because they know another will do the same. Because it's understood, universally, that one gold coin represents the value of an ox, for instance.Once you've realized the inherent fungibility of value, all money is the same thing. Gold, silver, oxen, a day's labor - it doesn't matter; they can be represented by numbers, as long as everybody agrees on what the numbers are. Again, they realized this about 600 BC. Again, you don't think that an intelligent person in 1 AD, living in the shadow of the greatest philosophers who had ever lived, could have predicted that ships would get faster, roads would expand, and other developments would have taken place that would have sped up communications?They might not have imagined email and whatnot, but they wouldn't have had to. Within their lifetime they would have seen increases in the speeds of communications; it's not hard, again, to see a trend and extrapolate. A realistic fulfillment to not letting people without a mark buy things? Hell, Buz, they did that to the Jews in Germany, and all it took was laws and weapons.You've taken off on your "e-cash society" flight of fancy and come to the erroneous conclusion that that's the only way this "prophecy" could be fulfilled. Why does it take electronics to not let a person buy something without a tattoo on their hand? You could have done that in the first century.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 09-27-2004 09:57 AM

Concerning why gold has value... I read a very interesting read a while bacl titled "The Monetary Economics of Thurston Howell III", which is based around a central premise: Despite being marooned on an island, why did the members of Gilligan's island keep using Thurston's money as a means of currency exchange (ignoring the *real* reason, which is lazy script writers)?They go into the case of government-less currencies, the basis of "value" in currency, etc. A very good starter on just what currency is.P.S. - the word for "mark" used is "charagma". Buz should read the definition:1. a stamp, an imprinted mark
a. of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
a. the mark branded upon horses
2. thing carved, sculpture, graven work
a. of idolatrous images

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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Originally posted by buzsaw

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Impossible, yes, on a global basis. Note in the prophecy of Revelation 13 that none from all nations would be able to buy or sell without a number or mark in the forhead or right hand.

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Hello buzsaw,Here again, IMO, you are reading these texts from your 21st century perspective rather than from the perspective of the author. What did this author mean when he said, "power was given him (the beast) over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations"?Compare Acts 2:5-6, "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. . . and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue."Does "men out of every nation under heaven" (and thus, every tongue) imply a "global basis"?Were men from Japan there in Jerusalem? Were Olmec's from Mexico present and hearing their "tongue" spoken? The Chavin of Peru? Aboriginals from Australia?Of course they weren't. Thus, both here and in Revelation 13, the author is speaking of the nations he is familiar with. And, from the author's perspective in Revelation, these nations would all be liable to come under Roman rule.

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buzsaw:

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BTW, THAT 666 HAPPENS TO BE THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT 666 IS THE NUMBER ASCRIBED TO THE CITIZENRY AS SO MANY ARE BELIEVING. THE TEXT DOES NOT SAY THAT.

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But that is exactly what it says:

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Revelation 13:16-18

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And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

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What do they have marked on their foreheads or hands? The name of the beast or the number of his name. What is the number of his name? Six hundred threescore and six.It doesn't say they will have the number of his name prefixed to a personal identification number. It says that "they" (each and every one of them) will have the same thing stamped on their forehead or hand, i.e. his name or the number of his name.Also and again, with regard to the "mark", as I mentioned in message 360, and Rei explained more fully in message 379, the Greek term used is "charagma" which denotes an "etching" or a "stamp". Some apologists have (IMO, disingenuously) tried to make various connections to the terms "charax" and "stigma" which they feel might be easier to distort into "implant". However, the bottom-line fact is that the author wrote (and thus presumably meant) "charagma".So, IMO, reading the text (as opposed to re-writing the text) seems to indicate that the author was focused on Christians vs. the Roman Empire (+ Judah's role). Specifically, that Roman Empire which was contemporary to the author of Revelation. We even have a contemporary example of the imagery employed by this author:

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Archaeologists have discovered the Coin (or Medallion) of Vespasian that exhibits a picture of the goddess Roma as a woman seated on seven hills.

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(Gentry, K. L. (1989): Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation. Tyler, Texas: ICE)

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Also, it is important to understand that (as Rei has explained repeatedly), the number of the beast is not three sixes in a row (and thus, not a bar-code, not a computer decimal, etc. , etc.). It is, rather, a sum: Six hundred sixty six.As such, the most reasonable inference is that it is the gematric sum of the letters making up the name of the beast, i.e. "the number of his name".And again, this understanding seems to be supported by the fact that some of the oldest manuscripts, along with comments by some of the early church fathers, record the number of his name as being 616 rather than 666:

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The figure 616 is given in one of the two best manuscripts. C (Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, Paris), by the Latin version of Tyconius (DCXVI. ed. Souter in the Journal of Theo., SE April, 1913), and by an ancient Armenian version (ed. Conybeare, 1907). Irenaeus knew about it (the 616 reading), but did not adopt it (Haer. v, 30,3); Jerome adopted it (De Monogramm, ed. Dom G. Morin in the Rev. Benedictine, 1903)

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(As stated by Del Washburn in his book Theomatics II on page 500, in a book published in London in 1932, and entitled The Book of Revelation, A Key to Christian Origins)

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Mark of the Beast (No. 25)

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And not only does this support the gematric understanding of the "number of his name", but it also provides an intriquing hint as to whom (in the contemporary Roman Empire) the author thought this "beast" was and/or "would be".Nero Caesar 54-68 ADLatin form: in Hebrew (rsq wrn - nero caesar) gematria - N=50, R=200, W=6 Q=100, S=60, R=200 = 616Greek form: in Hebrew (rsq nwrn - neron caesar) gematria - N=50, R=200, W=6, N=50 Q=100, S=60, R=100 = 666That "Neron" is an acceptable form for this gematria has been verified by the discovery of an Aramaic document in Wadi Murabba'at (BASOR 170,65) where the spelling is rsq nwrn (right to left). Also, though the last two letters of the consonants "rsq" are damaged, enough is preserved to show that no "vowel letter" was written between the "q" and "s".IBSS - History - Roman, and for further reference:(Discoveries in the Judean Desert of Jordan II (Oxford, 1961), page 18, plate 29, P, Benoit, J. T. Milik, and R. DeVaux, eds.)In addition:

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Ancient writers referred to Nero as a "beast" (See Philostratus Vit. Apoll. 4.38; Sib. Or. 5.343; 8.157).

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It should also be noted that the Greek word for "Beast" when transliterated back into Hebrew adds up to 666.

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Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies
IBSS - History - Roman

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There was also a belief in a revived Nero as the antichrist from the first century (cf. book 5 of the Sibylline Oracles) to the time of Augustine, who cites this idea in "The City of God".

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Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology

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Altogether then, (and without the 21st century eisegesis), it appears to me that this author was using contemporary imagery and common gematria to describe events that were occurring, or that he thought would soon occur, within an immediate timeframe. It takes no special pleading to believe that someone made a prediction (or engaged in wishful thinking) that just never materialized; examples of this are abundant (cf. DSS, the War Scroll for instance).Amlodhi

I hardly think that the cause of furthering the acceptance of evolution versus the belief in creation a mere 6000 years ago can ever be helped by moronic statements such as is offered above by DC.However, to be fair, the christians in the room should wait for approximately 2000 years, then do a world wide survey and see how many people remember the name of Dan Carrol the Messiah.I am no messiah but I too can make a prediction. I predict that the name Dan Carrol will be quickly forgotten within a few years of his death. Stupid post Dan, really stupid. Perhaps you should do a reality check before you post again.I find it difficult enough to discuss the idea of evolution and creation with professing christians. Posts like yours just make it even more difficult to convince these christians that evolutionists are not merely a collection of moronic odd-balls with no sense of reality. Thanks for nothing!

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Can you explain the purpose of attacking the topic on the basis of one post (NOT the first), taking even that out of context, and doing so more than 9 months after the post was made ?

Hi Darkstar, just wanted to let you know your signature appears to have a spurious carriage return in it.--Percy

We're in trouble, then. Moronic statements are all I got. I don't know how anyone would remember this "Dan Carrol" now, whoever he is. You might want to take a swing back to the posts surrounding it and take another glance. I was responding to the idea that Jesus is the messiah because the NT says so.So, okay, I'm the messiah because I say so. Isn't that fun?The point of the post was that the reasoning was stupid. Stupid when I use it, stupid when Jesus fans use it.I hope that helps. Sock puppets on standby though, just in case. *tips hat*

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"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

Last call on this one. If anyone wishes to continue this thread please post a continuation in PNT.

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How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950