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Author Topic:   Is man inherently good or inherently evil?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 271 (143844)
09-22-2004 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Rrhain
09-22-2004 4:13 AM


I am only claiming that some atheists, as well as some of every other group of people imaginable, define their own concept of morality and truth. Perhaps you are right, though. Perhaps God wanted them to think for themselves. It really is between Him and them. Of course, which God are we talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Rrhain, posted 09-22-2004 4:13 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Rrhain, posted 09-23-2004 3:15 AM Phat has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 271 (143896)
09-22-2004 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Rrhain
09-22-2004 4:02 AM


Rrhain writes:
"What do you think that god is doing as he "judgeth according to every man's work"?
You can't divorce this verse from the surrounding ones. The entire book of 1 Peter is all about salvation."
1 Peter 1:17 says:
"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear"
The verse is a statement about a characteristic of God. Namely, that he does not show favoritism to any man simply because of his status, job, title, wealth, etc. Instead, God looks at what a person does to determine what his [God's] response will be to that person.
I realize that the use of the term "judgeth" can lead someone to make the association with salvation. But, if we consider that, in the subsequent verses, Peter goes on to say that we are redeemed with the blood of Christ, that interpretation is contradicted.
Rrhain, what do you believe Peter means when he says that we are redeemed with the blood of Christ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Rrhain, posted 09-22-2004 4:02 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Rrhain, posted 09-23-2004 3:25 AM dpardo has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 93 of 271 (144009)
09-23-2004 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
09-22-2004 7:10 AM


Phatboy responds to me:
quote:
I am only claiming that some atheists, as well as some of every other group of people imaginable, define their own concept of morality and truth.
Non sequitur.
I asked you if you were saying atheists had no morals.
I didn't ask you where those morals came from. I simply asked you if they had them. It is obvious that atheists do not turn to god for their morality seeing as how they are of the opinion that the existence of god is a tenuous claim at best.
Therefore, do they have any morals at all? Do they think that a person can get away with anything?
Your statement is nothing more than marginalizing atheists to the same dismissable category as sociopaths.
Please start treating atheists with the same respect that you wish to be treated with.
quote:
Of course, which God are we talking about?
Sorry, but that's my question to you.
You didn't really think the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 09-22-2004 7:10 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 09-30-2004 3:59 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 94 of 271 (144010)
09-23-2004 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by dpardo
09-22-2004 1:11 PM


dpardo avoids my question:
quote:
quote:
What do you think that god is doing as he "judgeth according to every man's work"?
You can't divorce this verse from the surrounding ones. The entire book of 1 Peter is all about salvation.
The verse is a statement about a characteristic of God.
Did I or did I not just get finished saying that you cannot divorce this verse from the surrounding ones?
Did I or did I not just get finished saying that the book of 1 Peter is all about salvation?
Then what are you doing trying to divorce this one verse as some sort of independent statement with absolutely no connection to the rest of the text in which it appears?
It's a very simple question. I wish you would answer it directly:
What do you think that god is doing as he "judgeth according to every man's work"? WHY is god judging? What is reason that god is making this judgement? What is the outcome of god's judgement? If you were to be before god while he makes his judgement upon you, what will happen to you if god gives the thumbs up or the thumbs down?
What, for crying out loud, is the point of god judging?
quote:
Namely, that he does not show favoritism to any man simply because of his status, job, title, wealth, etc. Instead, God looks at what a person does to determine what his [God's] response will be to that person.
Yes, but answer my question first:
What do you think god is doing as he "judgeth according to every man's work"? What is the point? Irrespective of the criteria by which god is judging, why is god judging in the first place? What is going to happen to you based upon the result of the judgement? Do you get a brand new car? Your mortgage paid off? A foot massage? What is the point of god's judgement?
quote:
I realize that the use of the term "judgeth" can lead someone to make the association with salvation.
What else can it possibly mean? What happens as a result of god's judgement? If god isn't judging you for salvation, what on earth is he judging you for?
quote:
But, if we consider that, in the subsequent verses, Peter goes on to say that we are redeemed with the blood of Christ, that interpretation is contradicted.
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you?
Wasn't the blood of Christ the payment for salvation? How on earth can you sit there and claim that this isn't a direct indication that Peter is talking about salvation? The entire point behind the blood of Christ is salvation. He gave it in order for us to be able to achieve it. There is no other reason. There is no other meaning in the symbolism of it.
What is the point of the blood of Christ if not salvation?
quote:
Rrhain, what do you believe Peter means when he says that we are redeemed with the blood of Christ?
Salvation.
What do you think he means?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by dpardo, posted 09-22-2004 1:11 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-23-2004 4:13 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 96 by dpardo, posted 09-23-2004 5:23 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 271 (144017)
09-23-2004 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Rrhain
09-23-2004 3:25 AM


Rrhain, is this the type of point you want?
This link explains the mysteries of salvation. Of course, I am not sure if you and I see God the same way, but check out this link and give me a commentary.
http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR203.htm
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-23-2004 03:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Rrhain, posted 09-23-2004 3:25 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Rrhain, posted 09-24-2004 3:39 AM Phat has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 271 (144028)
09-23-2004 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Rrhain
09-23-2004 3:25 AM


Rrhain writes:
"It's a very simple question. I wish you would answer it directly:
What do you think that god is doing as he "judgeth according to every man's work"? WHY is god judging? What is reason that god is making this judgement? What is the outcome of god's judgement? If you were to be before god while he makes his judgement upon you, what will happen to you if god gives the thumbs up or the thumbs down?
What, for crying out loud, is the point of god judging?
My answer to your question is twofold.
For a "saved" [through faith in Jesus] person, I believe that God "judgeth" our works to determine if he will bless us or discipline us:
"6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?"
Hebrews 12:6-7
For an "unsaved" person [someone who has rejected God's offer of grace through Jesus], he "judgeth" in this wise:
"28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Hebrews 10:28-31

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Rrhain, posted 09-23-2004 3:25 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Rrhain, posted 09-24-2004 3:43 AM dpardo has replied

  
TechnoCore
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 271 (144034)
09-23-2004 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
09-21-2004 10:50 AM


Why only two perspectives? The theocentric perspective is just one among many. It's a bit narrow to think of a higher power as the only alternative as a the source. I would say that maybe society is the prime sorce of morals, and that those morals shift depending of what group in society you are currently in.
That morals are the concensus among a group people of what is okay to do in a given situation. So that the group will function as smoothly as possible. The morals shift depending the group and the situation.
So saying morals are either egocentric or theocentric is saying not much at all, imho.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 09-21-2004 10:50 AM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 98 of 271 (144371)
09-24-2004 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-23-2004 4:13 AM


Re: Rrhain, is this the type of point you want?
No, Phatboy.
The type of point I want is something you wrote. I am not here to talk to somebody else. I am here to talk to you. I can have a discussion with somebody who isn't here. You're here. You defend yourself.
Now answer the question: Does an atheist get to heaven if he does good works?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-23-2004 4:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-24-2004 4:13 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 99 of 271 (144373)
09-24-2004 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by dpardo
09-23-2004 5:23 AM


dpardo avoids my question:
quote:
What do you think that god is doing as he "judgeth according to every man's work"?
You didn't answer. Instead, you quoted verses that indicates that god does judge. But that isn't the point of contention. Obviously we know that god judges because the verse in question is talking about god judging people.
Instead, the question put to you is why is god judging? What is the result of the judgement? Is god going to give you a car? What is the point of the judgement? If god judges you and doesn't find you wanting, what do you get?
It's a very simple question. I wish you would answer it directly?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by dpardo, posted 09-23-2004 5:23 AM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by dpardo, posted 09-27-2004 6:41 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 271 (144377)
09-24-2004 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Rrhain
09-24-2004 3:39 AM


Re: Rrhain, is this the type of point you want?
Rrhain writes:
Now answer the question: Does an atheist get to heaven if he does good works?
I cannot judge who does and does not "get" to Heaven. All that I know is that my God is a God of many chances.
I have been taught that the only way to make it is to trust Him and acknowledge that all of our good deeds are nothing...only His Grace saves us. To directly answer your question, however: I Do not know.
BTW I AM suspecting something about you,Rrhain. Let me go out on a limb. You DO believe in God, but you are skeptical of the Bible, and you conceive of a God who judges the heart and the character rather than one who is made by the rules and writings of Man. You will NEVER allow your belief to be defined by scriptures because you do not trust human writings. Despite your different view, I suspect that you know my God in some ways that I have never thought of.
Out on a Limb......Phatboy
Do you define "atheist" as one who may actually have a personal belief yet not a belief that can be catagorized by anyone else?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-24-2004 03:20 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Rrhain, posted 09-24-2004 3:39 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Rrhain, posted 09-24-2004 4:24 AM Phat has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 101 of 271 (144381)
09-24-2004 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
09-24-2004 4:13 AM


Re: Rrhain, is this the type of point you want?
Phatboy responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Now answer the question: Does an atheist get to heaven if he does good works?
I cannot judge who does and does not "get" to Heaven.
You can't read the Bible and determine what it says?
If you can't figure out the most essential question from your holy book, what makes you think anything else you have gleaned from that work is of any worth?
quote:
BTW I AM suspecting something about you,Rrhain. Let me go out on a limb. You DO believe in God, but you are skeptical of the Bible, and you conceive of a God who judges the heart and the character rather than one who is made by the rules and writings of Man. You will NEVER allow your belief to be defined by scriptures because you do not trust human writings. Despite your different view, I suspect that you know my God in some ways that I have never thought of.
I'll never tell. My opinions about the existence or non-existence of god are irrelevant.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-24-2004 4:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-24-2004 8:38 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 271 (144394)
09-24-2004 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Rrhain
09-24-2004 4:24 AM


Holy Book or book full of holes?
'I know men, and Jesus Christ was no man.' Napoleon Bonaparte
The Bible is in and of itself nothing but another book. The person behind the book is Jesus Christ.
Rrhain writes:
You can't read the Bible and determine what it says?
And yet you chastize me a day or so earlier by saying:
Rrhain writes:
The type of point I want is something you wrote. I am not here to talk to somebody else.
So, on the one hand, I give you my belief of what God would do in a certain situation,quite honestly, as
quote:
I don't know.
and then you yell at me for not determining what the Bible says. Heck, this and every other debate forum that I have participated in can never agree as to what the Bible says and you expect me to tell you what it says. You, who don't even have an orthodox belief in the book to begin with are somehow equipped with your little quotes from Peter to somehow "prove" your point about atheists and their salvation! And what I am telling you is what you wanted to hear from me...which is MY belief. Well, I can tell you that I believe that God is personal. That He lives in His Son, and that what His Son has said is relevant.
I am NOT the type of Christian who is going to try to persuade you by quoting Chapter and verse at you==not because I dismiss the words but because YOU will simply throw back quotes at me that you choose to interpret differently. It almost seems like debates are just a giant chess game of witty articulations for you! I can boil my belief down to this much and say it to you with conviction: As to who gets to Heaven, THEY must know the character behind the book. That character is Jesus Christ who is God incarnate. If you do not know Gods character, you will not get to Heaven be you Jewish, Christian, atheist, or self defined. I believe that Truth pertaining to God is an absolute. Relative opinions do not count, here. You may skip away from the debate by dismissing MY relative consensus, but you WILL have heard my answer: All of the good works on the planet will not earn you or I any points in the "ticket to Heaven" department.
Rrhain writes:
My opinions about the existence or non-existence of god are irrelevant.
And I suspect that you will also label mine as irrelevant. Yes? Then WHY do you need answers to your questions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Rrhain, posted 09-24-2004 4:24 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 09-24-2004 8:47 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 104 by Rrhain, posted 09-25-2004 2:01 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 271 (144396)
09-24-2004 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
09-24-2004 8:38 AM


Re: Holy Book or book full of holes?
After reading my previous post, I was about to edit out my frustrations...but I'll just leave it as is. I DO like to debate/discuss things with you, Rrhain but you can bring out the frustrations in me with some of your attitudes...to wit:
Rrhain writes:
Did I or did I not just get finished saying that...(fill in blank)
and
Rrhain writes:
(*blink!*)
...followed by
Rrhain writes:
What do you think god is doing as he "judgeth according to every man's work"? ...What else can it possibly mean?
Are you telling me that you know what God means? and yet you say that your opinions about god are irrelevant? You CAN be frustrating at times!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-24-2004 8:38 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Rrhain, posted 09-25-2004 2:08 AM Phat has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 104 of 271 (144593)
09-25-2004 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
09-24-2004 8:38 AM


Re: Holy Book or book full of holes?
Phatboy avoids my question yet again:
quote:
'I know men, and Jesus Christ was no man.' Napoleon Bonaparte
And a megalomaniacal dyspeptic is a good judge of supernatural characteristics in people he never met because of what, precisely?
Of course you're going to find that Christians think highly of Christ. That doesn't tell us anything. What else are they going to think?
Two-thirds of the world thinks your "Christ" is not all he's cracked up to be. Why should anybody believe you over them?
quote:
quote:
You can't read the Bible and determine what it says?
And yet you chastize me a day or so earlier by saying:
The type of point I want is something you wrote. I am not here to talk to somebody else.

(*sigh*)
You really don't understand how rhetoric and debate work, do you? You will notice that I have not simply said, "1 Peter 1:17," and left it at that the way you did when you linked to that other site. Instead, I gave the verse...
[I][B]...and then went on to discuss what I thought it meant in my own words.[/i][/b]
While the referent in the discussion was a third-party text, the discussion that [I][B]we[/i][/b] were having was between [I][B]us[/i][/b] and not through a flurry of footnotes.
Would you take it as sufficient for me to respond to your bare URL with a bare URL of my own with absolutely no explanation as to why I thought it was important and how it connected to the points raised by your URL?
Are you seriously suggesting that we should be reduced to a farcical re-enactment of the Comedians' Joke Club where everybody knows the jokes so well, they simply refer to them by number? You post a URL with no other comment, I rebut your raw URL with one of my own, you respond in kind, and nobody actually says anything but instead the board becomes nothing but a battle of the bibliographies? The one with the most references wins?
Is that really what you want?
By all means, show us the reference. But you need to do your own work. That URL was not written as a response to my question. Therefore, you need to explain why you think it is an adequate response.
You'd never get away with someone else's work in school. What makes you think you can get away with it here?
quote:
So, on the one hand, I give you my belief of what God would do in a certain situation,quite honestly, as I don't know.
And that's fine.
But you then seem to feel no awkwardness in telling other people what to do when it comes to how to interact with god. If you truly don't know, then you need to stick with that attitude.
quote:
and then you yell at me for not determining what the Bible says.
You're the one who is following the Bible. Why do you follow it if you don't know what it means? Why are you trying to get others to follow it if you don't know what it means?
quote:
what His Son has said is relevant.
Then why on earth do you care what the authors of Peter or Paul wrote? Neither one of them met Jesus. If what Jesus said is what is relevant, who cares what Peter and Paul said? Why are they even in the Bible if it's supposed to be about Jesus?
quote:
If you do not know Gods character, you will not get to Heaven be you Jewish, Christian, atheist, or self defined.
I thought you said you didn't know. Now you seem to have some grasp of the situation. Which is it? Do you know or do you not know?
quote:
All of the good works on the planet will not earn you or I any points in the "ticket to Heaven" department.
That's a direct contradiction of Peter.
quote:
quote:
My opinions about the existence or non-existence of god are irrelevant.
And I suspect that you will also label mine as irrelevant. Yes?
Nope.
Yours are quite relevant because you're the one that is claiming that some people will go to heaven while others won't. Therefore, your criteria of what constitutes heavenly constitution that brings salvation are the most important things in the world.
But in order to show you wrong, I don't have to show myself right. In order to prove that 2 + 2 != 5, I don't have to show that 2 + 2 = 4. Oh, that's certainly sufficient, but it isn't necessary:
Assume 2 + 2 = 5.
Then (2 + 2) - 2 = 5 - 2.
Rearranging: 2 + (2 - 2) = 5 - 2.
Reducing: 2 + 0 = 5 - 2.
Reducing: 2 = 3
But, 2 != 3. Therefore, 2 + 2 != 5.
At no point have I ever made an issue of who is going to heaven and who isn't. Oh, I have speculated about all the possible ways god and humans might interact, but I have never claimed that one of them is the actual answer. That's because it isn't important. You're the one making the claim and all I need to do is show you that your claim isn't justified.
quote:
Then WHY do you need answers to your questions?
Because I want to see if you have the courage of your convictions.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-24-2004 8:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 105 of 271 (144594)
09-25-2004 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
09-24-2004 8:47 AM


Re: Holy Book or book full of holes?
Phatboy responds to me:
quote:
quote:
What do you think god is doing as he "judgeth according to every man's work"? ...What else can it possibly mean?
Are you telling me that you know what God means?
No, I'm telling you that I know what a sentence written in English means. Now yes, I know the Bible wasn't written in English. However, I am working under the assumption that the translation into English is reasonably accurate.
If you like, we can go back to the original Greek.
Are you telling me that if someone puts a piece of English text in front of me, I am insufficiently trained as a native speaker of English to be able to discern plain meaning from it?
quote:
and yet you say that your opinions about god are irrelevant?
Yep.
I'm not the one making the claim. Burden of proof is always on the claimant. I'm not saying god will or won't do anything. I'm simply pointing out that Peter and Paul contradict each other about what god will do.
quote:
You CAN be frustrating at times!
I know. It's extremely frustrating to be taken seriously and have one's words analyzed in meticulous detail and synthesized with everything else you've said at the same time.
But I'm an academic. There are a lot of letters after my name and I have a habit of treating everything as if it were a thesis under review.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 09-24-2004 8:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 10-06-2004 5:23 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
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