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Author Topic:   What is a Liberal, and What is a Conservative?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 241 of 254 (139940)
09-04-2004 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ThingsChange
09-03-2004 1:05 PM


Re: Run by workers?
The question is how to agree upon and keep leadership talent at compensation that is (cringe) "fair".
It obviously doesn't work whenever people are allowed to decide for themselves what they should be paid. CEO's and Congressmen included.
There is supposed to be an article in Fortune about the ratio of CEO pay to the typical hourly worker in the same company. I looked for the reference to site from it but could not find it. What I have been told is that it breaks down like this:
400-1 USA
57-1 Brazil
45-1 Mexico
38-1 Hong Kong
25-1 Britain
22-1 Australia
21-1 China
19-1 Italy
18-1 Spain
16-1 France
16-1 Taiwan
11-1 Germany
11-1 South Korea
10-1 Japan
And that this is the average of the top executives (not just the biggest companies}. BUT I need the actual article to check that claim.
I certainly think workers can make informed decisions on whether their managers and CEO's are being paid fairly or skimming the cream for themselves.
ps to Darwin Storm: there is a big difference between a manager and an owner or CEO. Focusing on managers instead of the top people is side stepping the issue as they rarely get to decide their own pay either.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ThingsChange, posted 09-03-2004 1:05 PM ThingsChange has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2004 10:57 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 242 of 254 (140012)
09-04-2004 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by RAZD
09-04-2004 7:27 PM


Re: Run by workers?
Okay got the link to the info. It seems the Fortune Mag is just the opener in the actual article, which is by Jim Hightower
Page not found • Hightower Lowdown
The numbers come from page 3
Page not found • Hightower Lowdown
The numbers are Jim's and not Fortune Magazine (although they may be based on the info in the magazine - he doesn't say).
he ends with:
Democrats even have at hand a modest proposal that would be both effective and politically palatable, raising the issue in a way that’s easy for everyone to grasp and that would discombobulate the Bushites.
It’s H.R. 2691, a bill by Rep. Martin Sabo, Democrat of Minnesota. Dubbed the Income Equity Act, it says that corporations can pay whatever ungodly sums they wish to lavish on their CEOsbut don’t expect us taxpayers to subsidize the extravagance.
Yes, all those gabillions for executive pay are now being treated by the IRS as a reasonable business expense, and they are fully deductible from a corporation’s income taxno matter how huge the sum.
Sabo’s bill simply redefines reasonable to mean CEO compensation up to 25 times the pay of the lowest-paid worker in the corporation. Say the lowest pay is $20,000 a year: The company could then deduct $500,000 for the CEO’s paybut anything above this level would have to come straight out of the corporation’s funds without any taxpayer subsidy.
Can anyone argue with that?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2004 7:27 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 243 of 254 (140013)
09-04-2004 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ThingsChange
09-03-2004 1:05 PM


Re: Run by workers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ThingsChange, posted 09-03-2004 1:05 PM ThingsChange has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 244 of 254 (140014)
09-04-2004 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Darwin Storm
09-03-2004 1:49 PM


Re: health care

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-03-2004 1:49 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 254 (140279)
09-06-2004 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Darwin Storm
09-03-2004 1:49 PM


Re: health care
quote:
It is very telling that every arguement you have boils down to the fact that you think managers do nothing except steal, rob, and sit on their tail.
No, I know that is the case; they themselves taught me to do the accounting that shows that they steal, rob, and sit on their tails.
quote:
have to organize efforts, provided communication between different aspects of the company.
So do many, many wage workers. Yet they are not rewarded on the same scale - why not? It is a process of theft, thats why.
quote:
Frankly, your concept of how any organization functions is deluded.
Really? You just argued that equal work should produce radically unequal pay, and yet you accuse me of a delusional view of how organisations work? Back to accounting school for you, son.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 09-06-2004 05:56 AM

This message is a reply to:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 254 (140280)
09-06-2004 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by paisano
09-03-2004 2:02 PM


quote:
At most, you have an issue with my defintions of the terms "leftist economics" and "libertarianism".
Erm, of course - becuase even in this post you have repeated the canard that Leftist politics is about state ownership. Seeing as you apparently feel a need to lie about leftists arguments in order to advance the criticism that they are "irrational", that is a pretty fundamental charge.
This is another demonstration of the Idealistic nature of conservatism; they keep shadow-boxiung at an enemy of their imaginiing becuase it is more comfortable and satisfying to do so than to engage with reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by paisano, posted 09-03-2004 2:02 PM paisano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by RAZD, posted 09-06-2004 1:52 PM contracycle has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 247 of 254 (140370)
09-06-2004 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by contracycle
09-06-2004 7:05 AM


of the people by the people for the people
What I cannot understand is how anyone can take the opening phrase of the constitution:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
... to not include social safety nets like social security, universal education, unemployment, and universal health care. As a society grows more civilized it becomes more aware of not just what it should do but what it can do.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by contracycle, posted 09-06-2004 7:05 AM contracycle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 248 of 254 (909535)
04-05-2023 5:36 PM


Reexamining an old topic
quote:
Conservatives generally believe:
Smaller Government
Not as many socialist programs
Right to bear arms
Lower Taxes
Bigger Military
Pro life
Pro Business (Freemarket Capitalism without much Govt Interference)
Religeous/Family Values

Liberal's Genearally believe:
Larger Government
Redistribution of Wealth from the producers to non-producers
Gun Restrictions
Higher Taxes
Smaller Military
Pro Choice
More Govnt Regulation of Business
Proponents of Gay rights

In a nutshell.

*EDIT* Pulled this off of a website

Conservative:
* Government control of the economy should be minimal. Equal opportunity and legal business practice should be guaranteed though. (Fiscal/Economic)
* Strong moral definitions should be held. Strict criminal law and sentencing are necessary. Freedom and rights cannot be compromised. A strong emphasis is placed on the individual (Moral/Social)

Libertarian:
** Government control of the economy should be minimal. (Fiscal/Economic)
* As long as actions do not harm others, they should be legal. Freedom and rights cannot be compromised (Moral/Social)

Moderate:
- The moderate tends to stand with different groups on an issue-to-issue basis. Some moderates have strong leanings in regard to certain ideologies in partial areas such as moral conservatism and economic liberalism.

Liberal:
* Strong government involvement and regulation of the economy. Redistribution of wealth and strict regulation of business by the government. (Fiscal/Economic)
* As long as actions do not harm others, they should be legal. Loose Constitutional interpretation. Society is emphasized. (Moral/Social)
The old posts in this topic provide further definitions. In today's politically divided world, we all need to determine just where we stand.

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Theodoric, posted 04-05-2023 5:46 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 249 of 254 (909538)
04-05-2023 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Phat
04-05-2023 5:36 PM


Re: Reexamining an old topic
Because you are too afraid to respond on other topics?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Phat, posted 04-05-2023 5:36 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 04-05-2023 5:57 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 250 of 254 (909539)
04-05-2023 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
08-29-2004 8:14 PM


My Political Compass
The Political Compass
quote:
Your Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -2.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.92
Im not sure what to make of my score, but I was being honest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 08-29-2004 8:14 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by xongsmith, posted 04-06-2023 7:05 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 251 of 254 (909540)
04-05-2023 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Theodoric
04-05-2023 5:46 PM


Re: Reexamining an old topic
It requires too much thought and stresses me out. I'm trying to relax on my day off...not to get anxiety.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Theodoric, posted 04-05-2023 5:46 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 252 of 254 (909577)
04-06-2023 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Phat
04-05-2023 5:55 PM


Re: My Political Compass
mine were:
Economic Left/Right: -7.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.51
oh well...

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Phat, posted 04-05-2023 5:55 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 04-06-2023 7:39 AM xongsmith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 253 of 254 (909578)
04-06-2023 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by xongsmith
04-06-2023 7:05 AM


Re: My Political Compass
One article at this website gave me pause to think about what sort of animal we have become in the US compared to the rest of the world.
German and US Conservatives have Little In Common
The Political Compass:
While Conservatives in the US equate public provision of healthcare as ‘socialism’, in Germany, and most other western democracies for that matter, mainstream conservative parties — like their left wing opponents — see healthcare as the right of every citizen. The supreme irony is that it costs each taxpayer a good deal less than what Americans shell out for so little in return.(...) Germany, incidentally, has an incarceration rate that is less than a tenth of that in the US, and boasts a far more humane system, oriented more towards rehabilitation than punishment. The jails are run entirely by the state in Germany, where private for-profit prisons are widely seen as an abhorrent idea.
Conservative Americans might also assume that their German political namesakes are against gay marriage. To the contrary, a poll shows that 73 percent of Conservative voters are for it, and it has been legalized.(...) Then what about abortion? It’s available in ‘Conservative’ Germany during the first three months of pregnancy. Then surely Germany’s ‘Conservative’ chancellor has opposed immigration? To the contrary, she welcomed well over a million Muslim refugees in a single year.
Right across the board — minimum wage, trade union rights, generous sick pay, at least 5 weeks paid holiday, free childcare and so on — Germany’s Conservatives have little in common with those of the US. Indeed Angela Merkel has been generally well to the left of Elizabeth Warren and the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. (...)After 16 years of Conservative-led government, the top basic tax rate in Germany stands at 45 percent — an unconscionable figure for most US conservatives. But it’s still a far cry from the 91 percent top earners’ bracket reached during the presidency of Dwight Eisenhower. That was a time before liberal Republicans became an extinct species; when conservatives in the US and Germany would have sat more closely together on The Political Compass.

Maybe now I see why you are so anti-Republican, Xongsmith. We have a lot of work to do here in the US.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by xongsmith, posted 04-06-2023 7:05 AM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 254 of 254 (909630)
04-07-2023 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
04-06-2023 7:39 AM


Re: My Political Compass
makes me wonder where Angela Merkel would come in...

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 04-06-2023 7:39 AM Phat has not replied

  
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