When was Shem born?

To all of the YECs out there, I have a question. In the bible, what year after creation was Shem born?Remember, the inerrancy of the biblical timelines is critical to establishing the age of a Young Earth (even though there is a workaround for Shem), so this should be an easy one.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 09-29-2003]

Read genesis 5 and add it up.

I have. The problem is, Shem doesn't add up. ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Rei writes:

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I have. The problem is, Shem doesn't add up.

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It would help if you would stop trying to play a game of gotcha and just come out with it.Genesis 5:32: And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.We then compare this to the later passage:Genesis 11:10: These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:Thus, if Shem was 100 two years after the flood, then he was 98 when the flood was over, and 97 when the flood started. Since Noah was 600 when the flood started, that would mean that Shem was born when Noah was 503.Now, the question then becomes: What does Gen 5:32 means? Does it mean Noah had his kids before, after, or right when he turned 500?There's only a problem if Gen 5:32 means that Noah had his kids before or right when he turned 500 since later passages state that Shem was born when Noah was 503.But if it means Noah didn't have Shem, Ham, and Japheth until after he was 500, then there is no problem.Or are you getting at something else?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

First off, Rrhain, it's much better if they have to read their own Bible and run into things themselves.The problem of reading it as Noah begat Shem several years after he was 500 years old is that you have to invalidate the accuracy of all of the other chronologies, which use the same wording.Are our resident YECs willing to invalidate the accuracy biblical chronology to attempt to fix this error? What about other similar errors? For example, Abram is born in 1949 AC. In 2024, Abram leaves Haran after his father's death. However, his father doesn't die for another 65 years. Samson judges in 2929 AC, and dies in 2949. Eli then judges for 40 years - 2989. Because of Acts 13:19-20, Samuel takes over 450 years after the land is divided (2559 + 450 = 3009). There's a 20 year gap with no judge. Of course, there's a conflict with 1 Kings 6:1 as well, which states that from Exodus to the temple is 480 years. This gives only 30 years for the Exodus, Samuel, Saul, and David combined. If you try and reconcile temple construction, you end up with a 114 year gap (temple begins in Solomon's 4th year as king, 480 years after Israel leaves Egypt).I could keep on going. The issue is, the dates don't reconcile.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Rei responds to me:

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First off, Rrhain, it's much better if they have to read their own Bible and run into things themselves.

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I know.But we both know they're not going to do that. After all, look at the response you were given: Read Genesis 5. But the problem is, it isn't Genesis 5 that is the issue...it's the relationship of Genesis 5 to Genesis 11 that causes the problem. They'll never get it because they aren't looking for it.

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The problem of reading it as Noah begat Shem several years after he was 500 years old is that you have to invalidate the accuracy of all of the other chronologies, which use the same wording.

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But that's a separate issue. It makes the chronology a little fuzzy and little bit longer, but it is completely insurmountable since we can derive worst case scenarios. That is, while the claims of age of the sire may be a bit nebulous, there is nothing nebulous about saying so-and-so was X years old when he died. Since we know the kids had to have been born within that time period, we can generate a timeline.Of course, that timeline will have nothing to do with what the Bible says it is when read in any sort of reasonable manner. It's inconsistent and can't be trusted.

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The issue is, the dates don't reconcile.

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Most definitely.But playing gotcha doesn't help show that.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I'm going to take issue here and say that there is an orderly timeline.
as per abraham -im not sure why you have a problem [side issue: i thought he was born 1948 -how do you get 1949?]
Heres the timeline;
The verses state:
abraham born to Terach[abes dad] in his 70th year
they travel to Charan
Terach dies age 205 [so Abraham ]
Abraham leaves for Canaan at age 75 [and Terach was 75+70]
the answer is that abraham left charan and his live father when abraham was 75 and his father 145; his father died 60 years later at 205 years and abraham was 135. the only problem is the order of the verses thats all - why did the verses order terachs death before abraham journey? -this is not a big deal -we can answer - because terach is insignificant and the Torah does not want to focus on him -so finish his whole story and tell his lifes end and on to our main character without a break -abraham. i read a commentary that said the following - abraham was supposed to be a great man, devout etc -how could he leave charan and leave his old dad behind? to hide this, the torah placed the verse with the death first, to cover abrahams leaving his dad, but you all noticed it - so the answer is he did leave him before his death.
Im jewish - so the whole ACTS thing is not an argument -i dont accept the NT so lets disregard it as folly and not a source for discussion. That takes care of the rest of the problems here regarding 430 vs 450. whats next?

Abram was born in 1949.0: Creation
130: Seth
235: Enosh
325: Kenan
395: Mahalalel
460: Jared
622: Enoch
687: Methusaleh
874: Lamech
1056: Noah
1559: Ham, Shem, and Japeth, although not really
1656: Flood
1659: Arphaxad
1694: Shelah
1724: Eber
1758: Peleg
1788: Reu
1820: Serug
1850: Nahor
1879: Terah
1949: AbramAm I missing something?As to whether he left at his father's death, the Bible is quite clear:"Terah took his son Abram, his daughter-in-law Sarai, and his grandson Lot (his son Haran's child) and left Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan. But they stopped instead at the village of Haran and settled there. Terah lived for 205 years and died while still at Haran. Then the LORD told Abram, "Leave your country, your relatives, and your father's house, and go to the land that I will show you. I will cause you to become the father of a great nation. I will bless you and make you famous, and I will make you a blessing to others. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. All the families of the earth will be blessed through you. So Abram departed as the LORD had instructed him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he left Haran."I mean, seriously - if you can reaarange the bible as you want, you can literally make it say anything. Not to mention, some early texts "correct" Terah's death age to 145.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Strange thing Rei - ianswered sun afternoon but my post never appeared -weird!so ill try to rehash a bit what i said, but a bit shorter:
First, in my bible [Torah] in the Hebrew theres a critical difference for the verses you quoted in english above - namely the word THEN...in ". Then the LORD told Abram"..its not there! just The Lord told etc so theres no order here.Any which way i can say at least in jewish view as found often in the talmud - we do hold that although at times there is chronolgy in the torah, in general the order of the verses are not chronological. This is part of the jewish tradition as brought down in th eoral law. You can take it any way you like.Now back to the original 'problem' of shems birth year - again - i dont see a problem:
Shem was born in 1558 and died in 2158. As for your problem with th e verses above in 5/3 ans 11/10 - not a problem either. The verse in 11/10 actually sheds light on Shem's birth, and here's how.
Shem was 100 two years after the flood, hence he was 98 at the flood
Noah was 600 at the flood so Noah had Shem when he was 502, which was th eyear 1558.as for the verse in 5/32 saying Noach had shem, cham and yefet when he was 500 - no problem -remeber that Yefet is the oldest ["his elder brother Yefet"] ..so this verse only really says that Noach began having kids at age 500 and he had his elder which is yefet. iy doesnt say how muc after yefet he had shem and cham - and so we see from 11/10 that it was 2 years later, in 502 that noah had shem. Problem solved i think?im sure youll have some problem, so have patience bc this work week is hectic and i dont think il have time to enjoy your reply till next weekend.as for the 1948 vs 1949 thing -i dont know how you got your nunbers. heres how i see it:Person: Life Span: Birth-Death:Adam 930 1-930
Seth 912 130-1042
Enosh 905 235-1140
Kenan 910 325-1235
Mahalalel 895 395-1290Yered 962 460-1422
Enoch 365 622-987
Metushelach 969 687-1656
Lemech 777 874-1651
Noah 950 1056-2006Shem 600 1558-2158
Arpachshad 438 1658-2096
Shelah 433 1693-2126
Ever 464 1723-2187
Peleg 239 1757-1996Reu 239 1787-2026
Serug 230 1819-2049
Nachor 148 1849-1957
Terach 205 1878-2083
Avraham 175 1948-2123
Isaac 180 2048-2228
Jacob 147 2108-2255from: Artsrcoll Tanach
I hope there were no typos....
Be well... added spaces between apparent paragraphs to make reading easier, also divided the table up a bit for the same reason - The Queen[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 11-03-2003]

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Any which way i can say at least in jewish view as found often in the talmud - we do hold that although at times there is chronolgy in the torah, in general the order of the verses are not chronological. This is part of the jewish tradition as brought down in th eoral law. You can take it any way you like.

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If you can rearrange verses at will, you can make the Torah say pretty much anything. I could make Exodus out in such a way that Pharaoh led the Israelites out of Egypt if I'm allowed to do that

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Shem was born in 1558 and died in 2158. As for your problem with th e verses above in 5/3 ans 11/10 - not a problem either. The verse in 11/10 actually sheds light on Shem's birth, and here's how.
Shem was 100 two years after the flood, hence he was 98 at the flood
Noah was 600 at the flood so Noah had Shem when he was 502, which was the year 1558.

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as for the verse in 5/32 saying Noach had shem, cham and yefet when he was 500 - no problem -remeber that Yefet is the oldest ["his elder brother Yefet"] ..so this verse only really says that Noach began having kids at age 500 and he had his elder which is yefet. iy doesnt say how muc after yefet he had shem and cham - and so we see from 11/10 that it was 2 years later, in 502 that noah had shem. Problem solved i think?

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So if I were to say "At age 20 I had three children", you would interpret this as meaning that I had my first child at age 20? That seems to be quite a strange way of reading, from my perspective.

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as for the 1948 vs 1949 thing -i dont know how you got your nunbers. heres how i see it:

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Looking over it, our timelines diverge at Shem The person I got my list from (I've computed them myself a long time ago, but don't have my reference around any more) apparently was confused by the Shem part as well.Any comments about the temple construction or exodus timelines? I can elaborate if you'd like.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 11-03-2003]

im curious haha -show me how pharoah could lead the jews out if the verse order isntl always chronolgical......actaally you are right in asking me about it- i dont know enough talmudical details to tell you how they figure out whether its chronological or not....and i suspect even there there are differences of opinion..but i think my basic statment is right....
i think that you will find that even if the ORDER OF VERSES is not necessarily always chronological [who said that this was always the main purpose in the ordering sequence?] you will not be able to do what you want because there will be limitations by the content of the verses. but enough here show me!now you said:
"So if I were to say "At age 20 I had three children", you would interpret this as meaning that I had my first child at age 20? That seems to be quite a strange way of reading, from my perspective"once again i think this is a translation issue [haha learn Hebrew and learn torah/bible for real! kidding! but it is totally different in hebrew folks....much more exact....no wonder there are so many questions...translation is a killer in bible studies!]
first - the verse does NOT say "at age 500 noah had three kids" - that would indeed imply as youve said. it said "and noah was 500 years old [stop - a break as seen by an 'etnachata' -a masoretic note then] and noah had shem cham and yafet. so, first idea- theyre 2 separate statments in one verse. so noah became 500..and then he began having kids....this explains why the verse insists on repeating "and noah" twice -why repeat? -just say "and noah was 500 and had 3 kids"...why repeat "and noah"...because thyere separate [jewish commentators do learn however the connection between 500 and having kids that caused these 2 ideas to be placed in one verse at all][ps all this is not form jewish commentators so dont blame them when you answer me - my ideas here]
but i dont think youll go for that, though that is implied in the hebrew so here is a better proof. here the verb 'to give birth' used is hebrew 'vayoled' -ie and noah was 500 yrs old and noach 'vayoled' shem, cham, and yafet. compare this to other verses where ppl give birth to see if this implies one kid at a time or all kids - see for example right before that 5/7 -at the end "and he gave birth to boys anf girls -here "vayoled" is used - obviously he didnt have them all at once or in one year...same in verse 11 and 16 and 19. and see the genealogies in ch 10, eg 10/26 - "and yoktan gave birth [here a similar 'yalad'] to almodad and shalef and chatzarmavet and yarach and hadoram and uzal and dikla and oval and avimael and sheva -did he have all 10 at once also ? my point -you cant prove a thing from an english mistranslation.... btw this was all my idea- i dont know hebrew biblical grammar to tell you what the actuall tense is ie present perfect etc... but i think my proof is valid.
Please elaborate on the construction and exodus problems you have - btw i donthave a biblical criticism nor christian exegetical background so im mising a lot of 'problems' you might refer too..but am open to all ideas....

Hi ... I came across this site while doing some research for my bible timeline.I hope no one minds me adding my 2c worth...but I thought this might be a bit use full...In Gen 5 ... as every one reads ... Noah had 3 sons when he was 500. The list is Shem, Ham, and Japheth.And in Gen 11 ... we read that Shem was 100 and begat Arphaxad 2 years after the flood.The confusion seems to be around the fact that Shem is listed first in Gen 5 ... indicating that he was the first born.However ... in reading Gen 10 ... we find the answer ... the generations of Shems sons ... we find that Japheth is listed first with his sons .... and we read in Gen 10:21 that Japheth was the elder.As has been correctly pointed out in one of the earlier answers to this question ... Noah was 600 when the flood occurred ... and 601 when the flood ended ... meaning that the flood was on the earth for a full year...therefore ... Shem had his son 2 years after the flood .... meaning
Noah was 600 ... + 1 (year of flood)... + 2 (years after the flood).At this time Shem would have been 100 ... meaning that Shem was born when Noah was 503.We have a similar situation with Abraham ... although he was listed first of the 3 sons born to Terah at age 70 ... we read in Gen 12:4 that Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. We also note in Gen 11:28 that Haran ... brother of Abraham died before Terah left Ur of the Chaldees.A comparison of prophetic time periods would indicate that the call for Terah to leave Ur of the Chaldees had happened at least 50 years earlier.And Acts 7:2-5 clarifies this issue further by indicating that the call for Abraham to come out of Ur happened in 2 steps ... firstly ... with his family they moved to Haran ... and then out of Haran ... after the death of his father.I hope this helps to answer this question.

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Originally posted by mendy

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First, in my bible [Torah] in the Hebrew theres a critical difference for the verses you quoted in english above - namely the word THEN...in ". Then the LORD told Abram"..its not there!

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Hi mendy,Actually, it is there. The first term of Genesis 12:1, וַיֹאמֶר (vayomer), utilizes what is known as a "vav consecutive". The grammatical construct is used to indicate sequential ("and then") or consequential ("and so") events in a narrated past.As such, the beginning of Genesis 12:1 should properly be translated as: "And then YHWH said to Abram . . .".Nevertheless, IMO, it is not necessary for this to mean that YHWH said this to Abram after the death of Terah. The sentence giving the total years that Terah lived and his eventual death in Haran seems to me to be an out of sequence "aside". And it does make sense linguistically to wrap-up Terah's part in the account here because, once Abram leaves for Canaan, Terah no longer has any place in the narrative.IOW, the "and then" of Genesis 12:1 is in reference to the sequential movement of Abram and not necessarily sequential with respect to summations involving other characters.It would be no different if I were to give a narrative account of my life saying: "When I was 15, my father moved our family to 'anytown' where he died at the age of 90. Then, after I graduated from high school, I went to university in 'anystate'."The "then" in the above passage refers sequentially to the events in my life (linking the move to 'anytown' with the move out to 'anystate') and doesn't mean that my father died before I left for university.So, personally, I don't see any big chronological problem with the account. Terah was still alive when Abram left for Canaan.Amlodhi

Genesis 5:32 indicates two possible things:
1. Noah had triplet male children when he was 500 years old or
2. The first of his three sons was born when Noah was 500 years oldGenesis 11:10 indicates that Shem was born when Noah was 503. No triplets here. So I think 2 would apply, Noah sons started being born to him when Noah was 500 years old.
Look at the order of birth listing in Genesis 6:10 Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Genesis 9:24 shows Ham as Noah’s younger son, and Genesis 10:21 shows Japheth as Noah’s elder son. So the order of birth is Japheth, Shem, and then Ham.Now look at Terah
Genesis 11:26 indicates two possible things as with Noah.
1. Terah had triplet male children when he was 70 years old or
2. The first of his three sons was born when Terah was 70 years oldActs 7:4 says that Abram left Haran after his father Terah was dead. No triplets here. Abram had to be born sometime after Terah’s seventieth year. Possibly when Terah was 130 years old.
Look at the order of birth listing in Genesis 11:26 Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
This is the same writing style as the description of Noah’s sons, indicating the same author and possibly the same meaning. The first of Terah’s three sons was born when Terah was 70 years old and the possible order of birth is Haran, Abram, and then Nahor.Your Person: Life Span: Birth-Death: should be:Person: Life Span: Birth-Death:Adam 930 1-930
Seth 912 130-1042
Enosh 905 235-1140
Kenan 910 325-1235
Mahalalel 895 395-1290Yered 962 460-1422
Enoch 365 622-987
Metushelach 969 687-1656
Lemech 777 874-1651
Noah 950 1056-2006Shem 600 1558-2158
Arpachshad 438 1658-2096
Shelah 433 1693-2126
Ever 464 1723-2187
Peleg 239 1757-1996Reu 239 1787-2026
Serug 230 1819-2049
Nachor 148 1849-1957
Terach 205 1878-2083
Haran ? 1948- ?Or possible this:Person: Life Span: Birth-Death:Adam 930 1-930
Seth 912 130-1042
Enos 905 235-1140
Cainan 910 325-1235
Mahalaleel 895 395-1290Jared 962 460-1422
Enoch 365 622-987
Methuselah 969 687-1656
Lamech 777 874-1651
Noah 950 1056-2006Shem 600 1558-2158
Arphaxadshad 438 1658-2096
Salah 433 1693-2126
Eber 464 1723-2187
Peleg 239 1757-1996Reu 239 1787-2026
Serug 230 1819-2049
Nahor 148 1849-1957
Terah 205 1878-2083
Abraham 175 2008-2183
Isaac 180 2108-2288
Jacob 147 2148-2295Abram was born when Terah was 130 years old. This would make him 75 years old when he left Haran after his father’s death. No contradictions.This message has been edited by Peal, 09-12-2004 05:11 PMThis message has been edited by Peal, 09-12-2004 05:57 PM

Assuming the texts were not pressed in cuniform into mud tablets using a sharpened reed, and that some other more laborious method was used, just how much time would've been spent on such trivial detail by Hebrew scribes reconstructing ancient oral Mesopotamian myths?