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Author Topic:   What is a Liberal, and What is a Conservative?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 199 of 254 (139045)
09-02-2004 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Darwin Storm
09-02-2004 12:26 AM


You seemed to me to be sort of libertarian.
I tend to be socially radical, whenever I can get away with it ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-02-2004 12:26 AM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-02-2004 12:40 AM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 201 of 254 (139051)
09-02-2004 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 11:59 PM


I meant going through the bills and making recommendations on them to reduce the fat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 11:59 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-02-2004 1:08 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 208 of 254 (139104)
09-02-2004 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Darwin Storm
09-02-2004 1:08 AM


So you would agree that a president that uses debit spending is worse than one that proposes taxes for necessary spending and thus have the spending addressed with the issue?
what do you think of the worst debit spenders of all time: Ronny and Shrub?
How can you fairly ask someone else to pay their bills?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-02-2004 1:08 AM Darwin Storm has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 214 of 254 (139117)
09-02-2004 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by ThingsChange
09-02-2004 2:16 AM


health care
ThingsChange writes:
Universal health care just for US citizens? Why not universal care for everyone in the world?
Why not? It is the same moral imperative for any human. Read the Declaration of Independence on why governments need to be overturned when they violate basic human rights, including the unalienable right to the pursuit of happiness? Do governments need to be overturned by revolution when the can be changed by evolution? The people being governed are the ones that will decide on recourse (a) if (b) is not done. The very concerns for happiness, equality and justice that lead our founding fathers to break from english rule should fuel the debate for kind, equal and just treatment by our own government
Let's look at minimum wage, for example. Noble cause.
Why not let the workers decide how much the managers should make? A nice democratic vote, what could be wrong with that? After all they are the ones actually making the product that brings in the sales dollars that pays for everyone else’s wages. Why shouldn’t every person in a company get the same amount from the net profits and if the company is doing well they all benefit? Would that not be a good inducement to do good work?
I think some sort of "health account" is needed
ahhh yes, the same scam as the privatize social security cause people manage their money better than the government shinola shrubby was touting before the economy went south — heard much about it lately? You won’t, shrubby is too busy looting the funds and would be hard pressed to find enough to finance those accounts. Problem is that health costs are not related to how you work, how much you make and the way you live, they are related to such things as drunk drivers leaving others as quadriplegics and dependent on medical services the rest of their lives. That is why it is insurance so that the large cost of the few are born by the small cost of the many that all have an equal chance of becoming the few. The cost of health insurance is artificially high with private companies because they are paying extra people to manage the system and they are taking a profit (a healthy profit?) from it as they go. Look at some CEO salaries in this field.
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by ThingsChange, posted 09-02-2004 2:16 AM ThingsChange has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by paisano, posted 09-02-2004 10:55 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 217 by paisano, posted 09-02-2004 11:14 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 230 of 254 (139408)
09-03-2004 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by paisano
09-02-2004 10:55 AM


Re: health care
Do something special and get a bonus, but it is not justification for a major salary increase. The same option should be available for anyone: what if a worker in a bar makes that same contact that your manager made with the same result?
Likewise there could be agreed upon "hazard" or "danger" or "disgusting job" etc pay bonuses based on actual hours in those conditions.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by paisano, posted 09-02-2004 10:55 AM paisano has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 231 of 254 (139412)
09-03-2004 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by paisano
09-02-2004 11:14 AM


Re: health care
That is a great way to ensure that only the rich are fully protected.
What makes them so special in this regard?
(Scams are scams, and when shrubbie stops insulting me then I might consider it.)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by paisano, posted 09-02-2004 11:14 AM paisano has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 241 of 254 (139940)
09-04-2004 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ThingsChange
09-03-2004 1:05 PM


Re: Run by workers?
The question is how to agree upon and keep leadership talent at compensation that is (cringe) "fair".
It obviously doesn't work whenever people are allowed to decide for themselves what they should be paid. CEO's and Congressmen included.
There is supposed to be an article in Fortune about the ratio of CEO pay to the typical hourly worker in the same company. I looked for the reference to site from it but could not find it. What I have been told is that it breaks down like this:
400-1 USA
57-1 Brazil
45-1 Mexico
38-1 Hong Kong
25-1 Britain
22-1 Australia
21-1 China
19-1 Italy
18-1 Spain
16-1 France
16-1 Taiwan
11-1 Germany
11-1 South Korea
10-1 Japan
And that this is the average of the top executives (not just the biggest companies}. BUT I need the actual article to check that claim.
I certainly think workers can make informed decisions on whether their managers and CEO's are being paid fairly or skimming the cream for themselves.
ps to Darwin Storm: there is a big difference between a manager and an owner or CEO. Focusing on managers instead of the top people is side stepping the issue as they rarely get to decide their own pay either.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ThingsChange, posted 09-03-2004 1:05 PM ThingsChange has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2004 10:57 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 242 of 254 (140012)
09-04-2004 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by RAZD
09-04-2004 7:27 PM


Re: Run by workers?
Okay got the link to the info. It seems the Fortune Mag is just the opener in the actual article, which is by Jim Hightower
Page not found • Hightower Lowdown
The numbers come from page 3
Page not found • Hightower Lowdown
The numbers are Jim's and not Fortune Magazine (although they may be based on the info in the magazine - he doesn't say).
he ends with:
Democrats even have at hand a modest proposal that would be both effective and politically palatable, raising the issue in a way that’s easy for everyone to grasp and that would discombobulate the Bushites.
It’s H.R. 2691, a bill by Rep. Martin Sabo, Democrat of Minnesota. Dubbed the Income Equity Act, it says that corporations can pay whatever ungodly sums they wish to lavish on their CEOsbut don’t expect us taxpayers to subsidize the extravagance.
Yes, all those gabillions for executive pay are now being treated by the IRS as a reasonable business expense, and they are fully deductible from a corporation’s income taxno matter how huge the sum.
Sabo’s bill simply redefines reasonable to mean CEO compensation up to 25 times the pay of the lowest-paid worker in the corporation. Say the lowest pay is $20,000 a year: The company could then deduct $500,000 for the CEO’s paybut anything above this level would have to come straight out of the corporation’s funds without any taxpayer subsidy.
Can anyone argue with that?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2004 7:27 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 243 of 254 (140013)
09-04-2004 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ThingsChange
09-03-2004 1:05 PM


Re: Run by workers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ThingsChange, posted 09-03-2004 1:05 PM ThingsChange has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 244 of 254 (140014)
09-04-2004 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Darwin Storm
09-03-2004 1:49 PM


Re: health care

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-03-2004 1:49 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 247 of 254 (140370)
09-06-2004 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by contracycle
09-06-2004 7:05 AM


of the people by the people for the people
What I cannot understand is how anyone can take the opening phrase of the constitution:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
... to not include social safety nets like social security, universal education, unemployment, and universal health care. As a society grows more civilized it becomes more aware of not just what it should do but what it can do.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by contracycle, posted 09-06-2004 7:05 AM contracycle has not replied

  
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