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Author Topic:   What is a Liberal, and What is a Conservative?
Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 226 of 254 (139158)
09-02-2004 12:26 PM


Topic drift / Not topic drift?
While it may well not be off-topic, might the economics discussion perhaps be best served by its own topic?
Link back to a good spot in this topic if you do start a new topic.
Adminnemooseus

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 227 of 254 (139159)
09-02-2004 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by ThingsChange
09-02-2004 12:20 PM


My point is that while it seems that capitalists contribute nothing, they actually have a skill and serve a useful purpose.
Don't you think, though, if that was the case CEO compensation would reflect their performance, like everybody else who has a real job?
Instead, they make millions no matter what boneheaded things they do.

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 228 of 254 (139160)
09-02-2004 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Adminnemooseus
09-02-2004 12:26 PM


Re: Topic drift / Not topic drift?
Going to give this one a break (temp. closing).
Spin-off economics topic time.
Probably reopening in a few hours.
Adminnemooseus

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 229 of 254 (139236)
09-02-2004 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Adminnemooseus
09-02-2004 12:31 PM


Re: Topic drift / Not topic drift? - topic reopened
Someone please start an economics topic.
Wish to respond to this message? See my sig for the place to do it.
Adminnemooseus

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 230 of 254 (139408)
09-03-2004 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by paisano
09-02-2004 10:55 AM


Re: health care
Do something special and get a bonus, but it is not justification for a major salary increase. The same option should be available for anyone: what if a worker in a bar makes that same contact that your manager made with the same result?
Likewise there could be agreed upon "hazard" or "danger" or "disgusting job" etc pay bonuses based on actual hours in those conditions.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 231 of 254 (139412)
09-03-2004 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by paisano
09-02-2004 11:14 AM


Re: health care
That is a great way to ensure that only the rich are fully protected.
What makes them so special in this regard?
(Scams are scams, and when shrubbie stops insulting me then I might consider it.)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 232 of 254 (139529)
09-03-2004 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by ThingsChange
09-02-2004 12:03 PM


Re: Run by workers?
quote:
However, they don't always compete as well as a decisive structured organization.
Actually, the opposite seems to be the case.
Southwest Airlines was the only airline to remain profitable when all of the other domestic airlines were in the red, and they have something very different than the typical higherachical corporate structure.
http://www.scils.rutgers.edu/~bunz/southeast.pdf
I can also give my own company as an example. Here's an article in Inc.:
The Coolest Small Company in America | Inc.com
'The environment is, indeed, ZCoB's most striking feature, combining a strong sense of community, a deep belief in people, a fascination with management and business, and a passion for great food and great service. It's an entrepreneurial environment in which good ideas become real businesses, and employees with good ideas have an opportunity to become owners. More to the point, it's an environment that many can't resist. "Working here has never felt like a job to me," says Wickstrom. "I'm constantly learning about managing, about food, and about myself."'
quote:
Decision-making and risk/reward can get murky and hard to reconcile. Some fail because of the competing self-interests of human nature in a company "run by workers". I am back to the evolution analogy of businesses surviving.
Of course, you forget that humans are social animals, not loners.
One of the major reasons we humans became successful is because of our abilito to work together towards a common goal.
We have a well-developed sense of fairness, too, which is why we are having this discussion.
Most humans are team players who are willing to work in a group to accomplish something, and if we are treated fairly as far as rewards and compensation, and as long as we see that those with greater responsibility actually do more work, I think most of us have no problem with people with greater responsibility getting greater compensation.
At least, this is how it is in my company.
Of course, those of us at the bottom and mid-level of the company have higher wages than the industry average, and those at the top
have lower wages than the average.
Additionally, we practice open book management, so aside from individuals' compensation everybody knows and discusses the financials of their department every week.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-03-2004 09:48 AM

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 233 of 254 (139534)
09-03-2004 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by ThingsChange
09-02-2004 12:20 PM


quote:
Convincing people to do something that cost them something (material or time) is difficult. It is a skill. Bill Clinton certainly has it. He's so good that he can take your wealth without your realizing it... and if fact, he can get many folks to go along enthusiastically!
Convincing people to do something that cost them something (material or time or human lives) is difficult. It is a skill. Bush, Rice, Powel, and Cheney certainly have it. They are so good that they can invade a sovereign nation that was not a threat to us without any evidence at all that WMD exist or they are connected with 9/11 or Al Qaida... and if fact, they can get many folks to go along enthusiastically!

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 234 of 254 (139538)
09-03-2004 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by paisano
09-02-2004 11:14 AM


Re: health care
quote:
I advocate the establishment of medical savings accounts, caps on litigation, and, most radically of all, making all forms of health insurance, public and private, illegal. This would remove much excess cash and overhead from the system. For example, MDs would be forced to charge more reasonable rates that are actually affordable and accept the more modest compensation of DVMs.
What if I need a bone marrow transplant that costs 50,000 and I don't have that much in my medical savings account?

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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 235 of 254 (139571)
09-03-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by nator
09-03-2004 10:33 AM


Re: Run by workers?
I am pleased to see successful organizations as you describe!
Maybe there is hope, after all.
Nevertheless, my point is that our system is already set-up to allow innovation and adaptation. We don't need more government programs to enable worker-led organizations to compete. You actually proved my point.
I am not in favor of the excessive salaries and perks of top executives, either. The question is how to agree upon and keep leadership talent at compensation that is (cringe) "fair". Do we need (cringe) government regulation at all, and how would that be implemented? Another part of the issue is keeping unethical practices and corruption in check.

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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 254 (139584)
09-03-2004 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by contracycle
09-02-2004 11:21 AM


Re: health care
Ah, no they want us to be grateful to the parasites. That capital was only accumulated through the expropriation of workers, and all the executive is doing is arse-licking like any skilled courtier. Its exactly this lord and supplicant relationship that makes capitalism no better than feudalism, and the arse-lickers function is only required because of the pre-existing exploitationg and appropriation. If the arse-licker wants to get paid, they should get a real job and start paying their own way.
It is very telling that every arguement you have boils down to the fact that you think managers do nothing except steal, rob, and sit on their tail. First off, managers do play a pivotal role. They have to organize efforts, provided communication between different aspects of the company. Frankly, your concept of how any organization functions is deluded. You talk about bias, but your every response is indicitive of your own.

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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 254 (139587)
09-03-2004 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ThingsChange
09-03-2004 1:05 PM


New topic?
I suggest we start a pointed and focused new thread on this topic. Perhaps "What are the comparative strengths and weaknesses of various economic systems.". Any suggests for refininement, before we propose the topic?

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paisano
Member (Idle past 6422 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 238 of 254 (139588)
09-03-2004 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by nator
09-03-2004 10:55 AM


Re: health care
What if I need a bone marrow transplant that costs 50,000 and I don't have that much in my medical savings account?
Why does it cost 50K now ? Could it cost less with a more efficient system of medical funding and delivery ?
If not, then you have a counterargument to my proposed scheme. Perhaps instead of abolishing health insurance, it needs restructuring to cover only catastrophic risk, and to eliminate inefficiencies in the current system.

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paisano
Member (Idle past 6422 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 239 of 254 (139590)
09-03-2004 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by crashfrog
09-02-2004 12:11 PM


In fact, your statement assumes what it's trying to prove; the system can only be called "coercive" if the targets of this system are the "rightful" owners; clearly it is the position of the leftist that they are not.
Assuming what you mean to prove is fallacious; it's Circular Reasoning.
Reread my post. You seem to think my argument is against government coercion per se. Rather, I argued that leftist economics (involving direct government intervention in markets and economic operations, and often government ownership of enterprises) and libertarianism (an absence of government coercion, except the minimal required to preserve social order) were inconsistent concepts.
At most, you have an issue with my defintions of the terms "leftist economics" and "libertarianism". If you have more precise definitions, propose them. Your charge of circular reasoning, however, does not hold here.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 240 of 254 (139932)
09-04-2004 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Darwin Storm
09-03-2004 1:49 PM


Re: health care
quote:
It is very telling that every arguement you have boils down to the fact that you think managers do nothing except steal, rob, and sit on their tail. First off, managers do play a pivotal role. They have to organize efforts, provided communication between different aspects of the company. Frankly, your concept of how any organization functions is deluded. You talk about bias, but your every response is indicitive of your own.
Well, speaking from my own experience in a very progressively-run company in which the staff come first and the customer comes second and the profits come third, I definitely agree that at least my managers work frigging HARD, and do crucial work in our organization.
I don't know if this is true in most companies, however, as most companies are not run anything close to how mine is run.

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