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Author Topic:   What is a Liberal, and What is a Conservative?
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 152 of 254 (138819)
09-01-2004 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by contracycle
09-01-2004 12:37 PM


contracycle writes:
The rich are necessarily the enemies of the people.
"Enemies"!! C'mon. That is a false assumption. In many cases it is a symbiotic relationship. In general, balance is sought by the free market as supply of workers meets demands of owners. The owner takes a bigger economic risk than a worker. For that risk, the reward is greated, if the marketplace is suitable.
To relate to the forum: Many similarities of Evolutionary principles occur in economies. Globalization is like the ability of an organism to spread from a local population to a wider area. Survival of the best adapted, etc. also apply. The money supply (and fluctuating value) also adapts to population, among other factors.
It's interesting that some Evolutionists argue like Creationists on some topics of this forum (especially the political topics).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by contracycle, posted 09-01-2004 12:37 PM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by crashfrog, posted 09-01-2004 1:40 PM ThingsChange has not replied
 Message 157 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 1:46 PM ThingsChange has not replied
 Message 160 by paisano, posted 09-01-2004 2:13 PM ThingsChange has not replied
 Message 169 by nator, posted 09-01-2004 7:34 PM ThingsChange has not replied
 Message 204 by contracycle, posted 09-02-2004 5:44 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 203 of 254 (139069)
09-02-2004 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by RAZD
09-02-2004 12:34 AM


RAZD writes:
universal health care should be one of those no-brainers ...(snip)...
Some things should not be about cost but decency.
If only it were so easy. Universal health care just for US citizens? Why not universal care for everyone in the world? MRI's and CAT scans for everyone. The best medicine and treatment. The best doctors. Where do you draw the line on adequate health care? It's tough to do artificially by government mandate. Responsible cost controls are reality.
Let's look at minimum wage, for example. Noble cause. However, the people and small business (not megacorportations) are the most guilty for hiring illegal immigrants to get lower costs and bypass the minimum wage requirement. That also eliminates work for the unemployed (even though they probably don't WANT to do hard labor!). Now, the illegal immigrants get minor health problems and go to the emergency rooms where (by law) they must be treated. The hospital staffing, supplies, facilities costs go up and the taxpayers must fork over more money. In Houston's case, this is property taxes. So, folks see taxes increase so much (thousands of dollars) that some of them (such as fixed income elderly) can no longer afford to live in their paid-for houses.
I think some sort of "health account" is needed that each of us can decide how to manage our life according to risk decisions that we make (not some government agency). The government can play a role in protecting that money account (from ourselves) from being spent on luxuries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 12:34 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by contracycle, posted 09-02-2004 6:10 AM ThingsChange has not replied
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 222 of 254 (139149)
09-02-2004 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by contracycle
09-02-2004 9:52 AM


Run by workers?
contracycle writes:
Run by workers
There is nothing preventing you or others in our free country and capitalistic system that prevents this "run by workers" type of organization from doing this in the marketplace. In fact, partnerships are quite common.
However, they don't always compete as well as a decisive structured organization. Decision-making and risk/reward can get murky and hard to reconcile. Some fail because of the competing self-interests of human nature in a company "run by workers". I am back to the evolution analogy of businesses surviving.
What I sense from you is a government-regulated economy that would restrict freedom of organization. That puts power in the hands of a few. Mix that with the variety of human nature and the ability of ambitious selfish tyrants to rise with whatever means it takes, and you have a society that leads to communist-type governments that restrict freedom. Sorry, but I think "run by workers" as a government-imposed economic model is idealistic and unworkable (can't compete and leads to degradation).
Evolution is a proven model. Let the people figure out how to compete with each other and reach acceptable (notice I didn't say the murky word "fair") conditions. It is a journey. It's freedom.
It astounds me that Evolutionists, of all people, don't see the value of that principle in economic and government issues.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by contracycle, posted 09-02-2004 9:52 AM contracycle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by nator, posted 09-03-2004 10:33 AM ThingsChange has replied

  
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 225 of 254 (139156)
09-02-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by contracycle
09-02-2004 11:16 AM


contracycle writes:
...a special slice to the capitalist who contributed nothing to the process. The capitalist is a parasite who lives off others sweat. Our economy would be much more efficient without them, their destructive competition and spendthrift excesses.
Have you ever tried door-to-door sales? Convincing people to do something that cost them something (material or time) is difficult. It is a skill. Bill Clinton certainly has it. He's so good that he can take your wealth without your realizing it... and if fact, he can get many folks to go along enthusiastically! That is skill that not everyone has.
My point is that while it seems that capitalists contribute nothing, they actually have a skill and serve a useful purpose. Someone has to decide which ideas will survive and prosper, and mobilize a new organization/facilities/working capital, so it is best left with someone who may lose something from a bad decision, instead of some government bureaucrat who just has a job ... i.e. a true non-contributing parasite, to use your term.
Workers make capitalist decisions everyday on a smaller scale. We all decide who should get our money for the goods and services that we need or luxuries we want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by contracycle, posted 09-02-2004 11:16 AM contracycle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by crashfrog, posted 09-02-2004 12:28 PM ThingsChange has not replied
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 235 of 254 (139571)
09-03-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by nator
09-03-2004 10:33 AM


Re: Run by workers?
I am pleased to see successful organizations as you describe!
Maybe there is hope, after all.
Nevertheless, my point is that our system is already set-up to allow innovation and adaptation. We don't need more government programs to enable worker-led organizations to compete. You actually proved my point.
I am not in favor of the excessive salaries and perks of top executives, either. The question is how to agree upon and keep leadership talent at compensation that is (cringe) "fair". Do we need (cringe) government regulation at all, and how would that be implemented? Another part of the issue is keeping unethical practices and corruption in check.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by nator, posted 09-03-2004 10:33 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 243 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2004 10:58 PM ThingsChange has not replied

  
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