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Author Topic:   What is a Liberal, and What is a Conservative?
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 254 (138923)
09-01-2004 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by RAZD
09-01-2004 1:38 PM


This assumes that the option to starve is a valid option.
Or get another job.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 1:38 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 9:33 PM Darwin Storm has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 254 (138925)
09-01-2004 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by RAZD
09-01-2004 1:42 PM


Providing access mean providing all the necessary means to get on-line, thuys would necessarily include the computers or other means. False assumption on your part.
No, you didn't state that intially, its not up to me to read your mind. Besides, once you start providing computers, you have drastically increased the cost. Also, then you run into the sticky question of how much of a computer you are going to provide, and by whom. ...... Not a simple proposition at all.
Second: education is not just learning courses in school, it also involves growing your intellect and finding new things to think about. The internet would provide this even without a course structure.
Tell me you have not learned a single thing while being on line.
Enjoy.
The same can be said for television, however we don't provide free cable to everyone to offer them the discovery channel. We also don't provide free tvs. The internet can be a useful source of information, and I have used it as such, but it is a huge assumption to say that everyone else would use it likewise. There are quite a few people that would look at teh computer and internet access and ask why their taxes were wasted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 1:42 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 9:41 PM Darwin Storm has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 254 (138968)
09-01-2004 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by RAZD
09-01-2004 9:33 PM


Funny, you seem to be the one casting the argument as either or. I suggest you read your own link. You always have the freedom to look for work elsewhere. You are never guarenteed a job. The constitution guarentees many things, but work is not one of them. Ideally though, the US has one of the LOWEST unemployment rates in the world. We complain when our unemplyoment rate hits 6 percent. For example, in 2002, the US had an unemployment rate of 6%. Meanwhile, Franch had an unemployment rate of 9% and Spain had 11%! Of course, there weree countries that had lower unemployment than even the US. Japan had unemployment of 5% and the Netherlands had only 2%!
Even though 2002 was a bad year economically, the unemployment rate was around 6%, which is VERY low. By contrast, 1982 to 1983 had nearly 10 % unemployment in the US!!!! Now, I would be the first to say that the situation is not a dichotomy between roses and crap. There are still many problems we need to address, but your characterization of employees as helpless victems is both sad and groundless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 9:33 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by nator, posted 09-01-2004 10:08 PM Darwin Storm has replied
 Message 185 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 11:05 PM Darwin Storm has replied
 Message 205 by contracycle, posted 09-02-2004 5:53 AM Darwin Storm has not replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 254 (138970)
09-01-2004 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by RAZD
09-01-2004 9:41 PM


See, I frankly think we would have been better off using that money to reduce our debt...... The government already spends too much. That is part of the reason why the national debt is still ballooning ( and this the fault of both parties).
As for my argument that many would not want such a service, or conssider it a waste is NOT a false arguement. I didn't say everyone would feel that way, but I have family members now who don't have computers and don't want one. You can't tell me that this sentiment isn't held by at least some of the population without lying. You are also assuming that internet access is a huge boon, any more than TV access is. Many people enjoy and utilize these outlets, however it is hardly universal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 9:41 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by nator, posted 09-01-2004 10:35 PM Darwin Storm has replied
 Message 189 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 11:43 PM Darwin Storm has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 254 (138971)
09-01-2004 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by nator
09-01-2004 10:08 PM


Not sure the exact methodology, but here is a link to a list of US unemployment for the last 60 years:
http://www.econstats.com/BLS/blss_m4.htm
I will look to see if I can find a corrarating list published by the US government. (should corraborate)

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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 254 (138973)
09-01-2004 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by nator
09-01-2004 10:08 PM


Top Picks (Most Requested Statistics) : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
This is a link to the US dept of Labor. You can choose which specialtiy category you wish to look at. The fifth choice, the civilian labor force unemployment rate is the general rate.
This is a much better site, you can alter the years, choose to plot a graph to give you a visual represntation of unemployment spikes.
This message has been edited by Darwin Storm, 09-01-2004 09:20 PM
This message has been edited by Darwin Storm, 09-01-2004 09:23 PM

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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 254 (138984)
09-01-2004 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by nator
09-01-2004 10:35 PM


However, schraf, during both those Administrations, the Congress was controlled by the opposite party. So, are you saying that our best bet economically is to keep a democratic president with a republican congress?
the Simple fact is that the deficit has increased because of both parties over the last 30 years. Frankly, neither has a lick of financial responsiblity.

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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 254 (138990)
09-01-2004 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by nator
09-01-2004 10:35 PM


19 expansion data points with high democratic control, 34 with lack of democratic control.....
about equal contraction data points for both....
This message has been edited by Darwin Storm, 09-01-2004 10:00 PM

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 Message 186 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 11:09 PM Darwin Storm has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 254 (139005)
09-01-2004 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by RAZD
09-01-2004 11:09 PM


I was going by the democratic control line,,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 11:09 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 12:13 AM Darwin Storm has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 254 (139009)
09-01-2004 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by RAZD
09-01-2004 11:05 PM


If feeling that workers are slaves works for you, continue to do so. As for poverty, of course it has increase, as has unemployment, since we are still in a recession and have been in one for the last 4 years.
However, there are several intersting concepts you bring up. First off, I would agree that the cost of living has gone up. Part of this is that earning has gone down, which is an issue. However, family spending has gone up dramatically, which means it takes more money to meet the higher expense standards. The other shift we see in the last 50 years has been the vast increase in the labor market as women have joined men in the workplace. This also has had a impact, if you look at the growth rate of the total labor force.
BTW, what would you advocate as a potential solution to these problems?

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 Message 185 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 11:05 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 254 (139020)
09-01-2004 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by RAZD
09-01-2004 11:43 PM


I look at the fact that our debt has swollen over 5 trillian since the 70's. I look at the fact that what progress we made in the late 90's has evaporated. I look at the fact that the debt interest eats nearly 30 percent of our budget.....

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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 254 (139023)
09-01-2004 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by RAZD
09-01-2004 11:43 PM


Seems I remember that Al Gore as VP brought down a lot of government spending
Well, it was a combonation of Cliinton and congress. I don't think Gore passed any bills or signed them, except for a few tie breakers . : )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2004 11:43 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 12:46 AM Darwin Storm has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 254 (139040)
09-02-2004 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by RAZD
09-02-2004 12:13 AM


Yea, not super clear. Not that I have a problem with evidence if its accurate, but the graph isn't clear on a few points. BTW, I am not affilitated with either party, and find myself with views that in some regards would be considered far left, some far right, and many inbetween. : )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 12:13 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 12:35 AM Darwin Storm has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 254 (139049)
09-02-2004 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by RAZD
09-02-2004 12:35 AM


Pretty dead on. Many of my views tend to be very libertarian, though there are some views of mine that wouldn't fall in that category.

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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 254 (139064)
09-02-2004 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by RAZD
09-02-2004 12:46 AM


Oh, I am sure there is plenty of fat to be found as well. Pork has long been a staple of the government. However, I consider the issues I listed above to be reason enough to consider our current government spending trends to be atrocious. If the government can't cover its expenses, so much so that we go TRILLIONS of dollars in debt, then there is a problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 12:46 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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