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Author Topic:   What is a Liberal, and What is a Conservative?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 124 of 254 (138641)
08-31-2004 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by joshua221
08-31-2004 7:11 PM


Re: Just to clarify
so, taking that silver surfer down to the convention?
I have found that the middle is surprisingly elusive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by joshua221, posted 08-31-2004 7:11 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 131 of 254 (138682)
09-01-2004 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by joshua221
08-31-2004 7:10 PM


Re: Less sniping, more discussion please
I took it as "not directed at just prophex" with the 'as' dropped by accident

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 142 of 254 (138758)
09-01-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by nator
09-01-2004 9:56 AM


internet access?
{added by edit}
free internet acces could have been provided for every american for less money than the tax give-away. this would have boosted both education and commerce.
to get back on topic:
the tax give-away is reactionary conservative
the free internet is radical liberalism
This message has been edited by RAZD, 09-01-2004 09:34 AM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 12:11 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 154 of 254 (138825)
09-01-2004 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 12:04 PM


riiight.
However, all employment is volentary on both sides.
This assumes that the option to starve is a valid option.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 12:04 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 8:07 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 156 of 254 (138829)
09-01-2004 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 12:11 PM


Darwin Storm writes:
means nothing if people don't have computers
Providing access mean providing all the necessary means to get on-line, thuys would necessarily include the computers or other means. False assumption on your part.
Second: education is not just learning courses in school, it also involves growing your intellect and finding new things to think about. The internet would provide this even without a course structure.
Tell me you have not learned a single thing while being on line.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 12:11 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 8:11 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 157 of 254 (138831)
09-01-2004 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ThingsChange
09-01-2004 1:15 PM


Try parasites, especially in the sense of the exessively greedy CEO's that take salaries many many times higher than workers (do they really even work twice as hard?)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by nator, posted 09-01-2004 7:46 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 173 of 254 (138947)
09-01-2004 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by nator
09-01-2004 7:46 PM


lucky for you.
personally I think anyone who gets a million $ bonus should be shot in the interests of improving the economy.
heh.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 174 of 254 (138953)
09-01-2004 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 8:07 PM


assumes another job is available and is anywhere near equivalent.
you are operating under the impression that staying employed at the level you were at (with salary, benefits, seniority and any other perks) when the economy went south (due to shrub mismanagement and knowledge by wallstreet that he would be bad for business) is at all possible when there are 3/4's the jobs at any level above McJobs as before.
for the employee looking to bail, the options are to find a job at or below his previous level (unless he can show he is underutilized, and might be able to nudge up a notch). for the emploer they can fill a job with sufficient or greater skills. this is not an equal situation.
it is a common fantasy of the conservative world, that just any old job will do, and this false assumption makes their conclusion that the employee has as much "freedom" to change as the employer invalid.
couple that with unemployment and disemployment (those off the official "unemployment" records but still not working) and the employer has many more opportunities to fill a working position than any employee has to change employers.
try Forbidden

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 8:07 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 10:04 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 175 of 254 (138960)
09-01-2004 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 8:11 PM


narrow minded is narrow minded. what I said was you could provide access to everyone in america for less than the tax give-away.
that you take that to only mean a cable to your house is your narrow thinking on the matter. the obvious problem you saw of what to do with the cable means that a system must also be provided to use it. this is thinking through to the logical conclusion. and NO it is not a significant increase in cost, using today costs you can get an addequate computer for $200 compared to cable internet at $60 per month. with bulk order the cost would be way down. and that is assuming a fully functional computer with some opther useful software (wordprocessor, spreadsheet, etc) rather than an access machine.
thank you for admiting that you have used it to learn something or I would say your need to be here had just decreased significantly.
There are MANY people that look at the tax give-back and ask "why was their tax money wasted" -- another false argument.
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 8:11 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 10:12 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 182 of 254 (138983)
09-01-2004 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 10:14 PM


when you do so, also look at the difference in the safety nets (how much and how long) for the people. perhaps people in america complain because they are being screwed by the system. also look at the difference in relative pay between top and bottom and amount of vacation time. the US does the least for its workers.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 10:14 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 185 of 254 (138994)
09-01-2004 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 10:04 PM


You always have the freedom to look for work elsewhere.
I already addressed this. Do you know anyone that goes in to the bass and says "I've been thinking what a great job I've been doing, and I want to take a pay cut for it" hmmm? You have the "freedom to do that too ... you also have the "freedom" to walk off a ten story building, but something usually intervenes, like self preservation.
Yes there are many options, the problem with your type of thinking is that they are not equivalent options: that is what makes your argument false.
yes you can look. IF there are no jobs equivalent to what you are doing then what oh great seer of economics?
it seems you don't get it (surprised look of shock on face).
suppply side economics is failed thinking.
the numbers of people living in poverty has increased every year of shrubs administration: how does that happen with only 6% unemployment?
the numbers of families needing two incomes has increased because jobs pay less, and more jobs have less benefits so the families end up paying or passing.
unemployment is a false indicator, but if it makes you feel good keep telling yourself it is okay.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 10:04 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 11:42 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 186 of 254 (138998)
09-01-2004 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 10:59 PM


I don't think you are reading that right

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 10:59 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 11:33 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 189 of 254 (139012)
09-01-2004 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 10:12 PM


then make it free to anyone who signs up for it and cut your costs.
When you say the governement spends too much, how do you draw this conclusion: do you evaluate the budget as published to see where it goes and then look for areas that can be reduced? or do you take someone's word for it? Personally I think the biggest problem is the pork barrel politics run by whichever party is in power: make it unconstitutional to have anything not directly related to the cause for the bill to be included.
(Seems I remember that Al Gore as VP brought down a lot of government spending. )

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 10:12 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 11:57 PM RAZD has not replied
 Message 194 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 11:59 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 196 of 254 (139036)
09-02-2004 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 11:33 PM


I think that means control of congress.
the expansion is in months per year with red being "up" monthes and green being "down" months -- it is crude (how much up?) but that is why they peg at 12 on the red dots. perhaps if you subtracted green from red and graphed it you would have a (very) rough trend line for each year.
there is obviously something wrong with the data at the end, showing 12 months of expansion each year under shrub: it ain't so or the "criteria" is very loose and the whole thing suspect.
taking the period from Eisenhower through Clinton I get
1952 +12 (Eisenhower) (+60/8 = 7.5 average months per year)
1953 +12
1954 +00
1955 +04
1956 +12
1957 +12
1958 +02
1959 +06
1960 +12 (Kennedy/Johnson) (+82/8 = 10.25 average months per year)
1961 +12
1962 +10
1963 +12
1964 +12
1965 +12
1967 +12
1968 +12 (Nixon/Ford) (+66/8 = 8.25 average months per year)
1969 +12
1970 +10
1971 -08
1972 +12
1973 +12
1974 +08
1975 -12
1976 +08 (Carter) (+44/4 = 11.0 average months per year)
1977 +12
1978 +12
1979 +12
1980 +00 (Reagan/Bush) (+84/12 = 7.0 average months per year)
1981 +00
1982 -08
1983 +12
1984 +12
1985 +12
1986 +12
1987 +12
1988 +12
1989 +12
1990 +00
1991 +08
1992 +12 (Clinton) (+96/8 = +12 average months per year)
1993 +12
1994 +12
1995 +12
1996 +12
1997 +12
1998 +12
1999 +12
For what it is worth.
k?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 11:33 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-02-2004 12:26 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 198 of 254 (139043)
09-02-2004 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Darwin Storm
09-01-2004 11:42 PM


workers certainly do not enjoy a democratic work environment. work is possibly the last stronghold of petty kingdoms. the whole hostile takeover, the buy-outs (rape and pillage) seem more of a medeival metaphor than civilized.
BTW, what would you advocate as a potential solution to these problems?
Isn't it obvious?
Democratic control of the house and senate and Kerry as President
I find if curious that some {?is it near a hundred years yet?} since unions first came on the business scene that they are not obsolete. They should be, if you think about it, not because they are "bad for business" but because the things that come from unions should be universal for all americans and not applied only to their petty kingdoms.
universal health care should be one of those no-brainers going back to the basic precepts of the founding fathers, that all are created equal and have the unalienable right to the pursuit of happiness, and to make such changes in the government of the people by the people for the people necessary to do this, "laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Some things should not be about cost but decency.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Darwin Storm, posted 09-01-2004 11:42 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by ThingsChange, posted 09-02-2004 2:16 AM RAZD has replied

  
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