New Book: Kerry ‘Unfit for Command’

Hangdawg13 speculates:

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Well, it must have been a friendly smear because I watched McCain's speech last night, and he came out strongly in support of George Bush.

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If I remember correctly, the Bush camp referred to McCain as mentally unstable. It wasn't a direct attack on his war record unless I'm mistaken, but the implication was that McCain's incarceration in Vietnam left him unstable and unfit for the presidency. McCain told Bush, in public and on-camera (this clip has been aired on MSNBC a few times recently) that he should be ashamed.I've been getting most of my TV news lately from NWI (NewsWorld International) and MSNBC. I must say that both have done a fair job of exposing the lies and distortions coming from SBVFT.

yes one had his eyes wide open, and was aware of the ramifications if he kept going.the other had his eyes wide shut and started a war just to do what his father was too wise to do.to say "the apple didn't fall far from the tree" would insult Bush Sr,

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

What part about the unemployment statistics not reflecting true unemployment do you not understand? after 26 weeks of being unemployed you are no longer "unemployed" and not counted in the statistics. Thus the rate can go down once there is NO ONE ELSE TO FIRE.the economy IS in the dumps, high cost, jobs available pay less than before ... if this is success to you, I know some stocks you might like. Liars generally do, especially if you have practiced it as long as O'Neil has (his first job being employed to smear Kerry was with the Nixon administration -- remember that stalwart icon of veracity? He couldn't prove his case then). The fact that official documents show they are lying should be enough for anyone to see that they are paid to lie for one purpose alone.Read http://EvC Forum: New Book: Kerry ‘Unfit for Command’
Here is the yellow section: ie -- Liars all.Also look at HTTP 429
And Page not found - FactCheck.org on the SBV ad #1
And Page not found - FactCheck.org on the SBV ad #2These are independent fact check sites, they show that these men are lying and misrepresenting Kerry, that military records back up what Kerry says and that the funding is from the major republican party donator in texas. Cozy. Actually the SBV lying ads are attempting to take attention away from the real facts of what Kerry did and said, and it seems to be working with gullible people who (for some unfathomable reason) believe these lies even after they have shown to be false, and they don't have the sense to CHECK THE FACTS THEMSELVES.Enjoy your delusion or should that be plural?

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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The situations of the two men were/are different.

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Right.Sr. had a legitimate reason for going to war.Jr. did not.Sr. realized that invading Baghdad was a really bad idea and therefore didn't do it.Jr. foolishly and recklessly invaded Baghdad withoput any plan of how to do it or what to do once they got there.

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Judging them with the use two sets of different circumstances/consequences is not a good idea.

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What?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know what it takes to make a man who wouldn't capitulate to torture in a POW camp capitulate to a man who, by proxy, called him a potentially crazy philanderer.I'm not sure I want to know what it takes to break a man like that, but I do know one thing; I don't want it in the fuckin' White House. Our objections are not based on the partisanship of the Swift Boat guys. They're based on the fact that what the Swift Boat guys are saying is proven false by the facts.I'm not sure how you missed that. Absolutely none of the Swift Boat claims have withstood inquiry. What the Swift Boat guys are saying has been proven false not only by official Naval documentation but many times, other claims by the Swift Boat veterans themselves. They don't believe he's lying, though. We know through many of their own statements that the Swift Boat liars know that they're lying. The Swift Boat guys know that the facts back up Kerry's accounts, but they repeat their claims anyway. Did you forget when we demonstrated that, or did you just skip it?

Freedom of expression doesn't guarantee freedom to lie. That's why libel, slander, and fraud are illegal.

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What?

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What I was trying to say is, you are comparing two people, in two different times, in two different situations, with two different sets of consequences. I think comparing the two with the reasoning you have shown me is foolish.

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"Sr. realized that invading Baghdad was a really bad idea and therefore didn't do it."

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In Between these two quotes is time, and change, the world was a different place when Sr. was in power, first off, 9/11 of course did not happen. I am not saying that 9/11 was a reason for war, please do not misunderstand this, but say 9/11 happened when Sr. was in office, things would have obviously been different."

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Jr. foolishly and recklessly invaded Baghdad withoput any plan of how to do it or what to do once they got there."

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In 2003, coalition forces acted with skill and bravery to liberate the Iraqi people and remove a grave and gathering danger to America and the world.
In 2001, with less than a month’s notice, American and British forces joined with local anti-Taliban troops in an assault on the al Qaeda network and the Taliban regime that gave it safe harbor in Afghanistan.
In both cases, decisive victories were achieved by integrating real time intelligence with sophisticated technologies in cooperation with indigenous forces. -georgewbush.comAll that without a plan? Really.
I think Bush had a plan, no matter how stupid, uneffiecient, inadequate and too simple you might think it may have been.

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"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."Ephesians 5:14

Beautiful!!! You made the point for me. Maybe it takes honesty, sincerity, communication, and GOOD LEADERSHIP SKILLS to do such a thing. Oh... you don't want honesty, sincerity, communication, and good leadership skills in the white house? I guess you should vote for Kerry. Then fuckin sue the SBV's for libel and slander!!! lol! you'd think the Kerry camp or SOMEBODY would do that instead of whine about it, malign THEIR characer, and try to stop their ad by empty threats. If the SBV's really were lying then why only bluff or why care?The Kerry camp should have either let the whole vietnam/SBV issue go and let the facts speak for themseleves or immediately sue were the SBV's statements not true. The fact that the Kerry camp made such a big fuss about it and is trying to wipe out the SBV's voices through slander and threats speaks volumes to me. No you dont.. the only people who truly know what happened were the people that were there. I've heard arguments back and forth about it and I don't really care what you've come up with because people have dug up enough stuff and "manufactured" enough stuff, especially on the internet, that you can come up with whatever the hell you want to support your position. Kerry's reaction to all this is more telling to me than anyone's testimony about those 4 months almost 3 decades ago.

Just saw this. And as I said in my previous post, you and anyone who feels like it is free to sue the SBV's for libel and slander.People have publicly lied about and slandered Bush and what does he do? He ignores them and they just bounce right off.When someone starts a rumor about you in high school do you:
a) "take them to court" by producing evidence to the contrary in front of everyone thereby smartly making THEM look like the fool
b) ignore the rumor, let it die, and let people think what they want to think knowing eventually your true character will be made plain
c) get upset, scream "its not true!", go tell the teacher to tell them to quit spreading the rumor, and tell everyone they are bad peopleBush has done (b). Kerry has done (c). Either a or b would be acceptable, but preferably b as it wastes less time and money.C is not acceptable in a man who would be president.

Ok, but Bush doesn't act like he has those things.Rather, he acts like an arrogant, vindictive tyrant whose administration won't hesitate to bring the full force of political power against anybody who refuses to give them what they want.If Bush acted like an honest, sincere, communicative leader, I would grant what you say to be true. But he doesn't, which makes McCain's conversion so disturbing. No, I don't want arrogance, vindictiveness, and recklessness in the White House. Well, I can't sue because I have no claim; the SB liars have made no claims against me.Kerry can't sue because public figures have significantly weaker protections against defamation than private citizens. It's virtually impossible for a politician to win a libel or slander suit, and they generally come out looking the worse for it.In other words, maybe you don't realize it, but I'm sure the SB guys do - Kerry has almost no protection against defamation except the truth, which he and others have shown, but for some reason, the truth doesn't make much headway with people like you. Why is that, exactly? Because folks like you don't seem to believe the truth when it is shown to you; folks like you seem to take the repetition of a lie as a confirmation of its veracity. Right, and the only stories from the people who were there that are internally consistent and consistent with official documentation are those stories that confirm Kerry's account.Look, that's enough for me, I guess. It's enough to show that Kerry's story is consistent with the records, and that the Swift Boat stories are neither consistent with each other nor consistent with the earlier remarks of the Swift Boaters themselves. Why do you keep asking for the evidence that proves Kerry right, then, if you never had any intent of giving it consideration or credence?The more you post, the more I understand Kerry's reaction - how do you prove lies false to people who ask for evidence but are determined to ignore it?

go to reply to shraf

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"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."Ephesians 5:14

Hahaha... I'm sorry, I really shouldn't be laughing, but this is just funny.You admit that it takes those qualities I listed to do what Bush has done, but you refuse to believe that Bush has those qualities because in your subjective viewpoint "Bush doesn't act like he has those things."Through the lens of your subjectivity and hatred of this man you see him as a "arrogant, vindictive, tyrant" even though the fruit of his actions show just the opposite. He doesn't becuase... no matter what happens... everything that is bad is Bush's fault in your mind. Even the things that are good that are twisted by a liberal media you swallow and fuel your hatred of him by it.So when the image of Bush in your mind fails to meet what Bush is REALLY LIKE as evidenced by McCain and others like him who have been drawn in by Bush's winsome personality and leadership skills, its no surprise that you find this schism disturbing.THIS is what I call divorcement from reality. As I've said several times, what happened 3 decades ago over four months in a twisted war matters not to me. What matters to me is how Kerry has proved himself as a leader in the senate and in the direction of his campaign. If he can't handle a little political heat, how's he going to handle healthcare or the budget or a terrorist attack? Again, I have not debated the claims as I don't know enough to debate the claims. I've heard arguments both ways. What matters to me is not what happened back then, but how Kerry has handled this situation now. EASY!!! ignore them, remain firm, resolute, and let your character be shown through firm and effective leadership.

Swift Veterans Letter to John Kerry
Author:
Dated: Tuesday, May 04 2004 @ 10:00 PM PDT
Viewed: 55115 times
Senator Kerry,
We write from our common heritage as veterans of duty aboard Swift Boats in the Vietnam War. Indeed, you should note that a substantial number of those men who served directly with you during your four month tour in Vietnam have signed this letter.It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us). Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.We believe you continue this conduct today, albeit by changing from an anti-war to a "war hero" status. You now seek to clad yourself in the very medals that you disdainfully threw away in the early years of your political career. In the process, we believe you continue a deception as to your own conduct through such tactics as the disclosure of only carefully screened portions of your military records. Both then and now, we have concluded that you have deceived the public, and in the process have betrayed honorable men, to further your personal political goals.Your conduct is such as to raise substantive concerns as to your honesty and your ability to serve, as you currently seek, as Commander-in-Chief of the military services.It is vital that the American public have as much information as possible about candidates for President of the United States. In various ways, you have rightly called upon President Bush to be fully accountable and to provide full disclosure. In the same spirit, now that you are the presumptive nominee of your Party, we believe it is incumbent upon you to make your total military record open to the American people.Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records. Further, we call upon you to correct the misconceptions your campaign seeks to create as to your conduct while in Vietnam. Permit the American public the opportunity to assess your military performance upon the record, and not upon campaign rhetoric.Senator Kerry, we were there. We know the truth. We have been silent long enough. The stakes are too great, not only for America in general but, most importantly, for those who have followed us into service in Iraq and Afghanistan. We call upon you to provide a full, accurate accounting of your conduct in Vietnam.Respectfully,Daniel Aguilar, OSC, USNR-R
Pat Alexander
Roy Alexander*
Robert Anderson, EN2, USN (Ret.)
Kenneth J. Andrews, Lt.*
Arturo Arias, QM2, USN (Ret.)
Daniel V. Armstrong, BM2*
Douglas Armstrong, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Harry Ball, Cdr., USN (Ret.)
Ray Lewis Ballew*
Sonny Barber, USN (Ret.)
John Bare
Alexander Bass*
George "M." Bates*
Richard Beers*
Paul L. Bennett, Cdr., USN*
Edward J. Lord Mort Bergin, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Henry Buddy Berman, QM2*
Herb Blume, Lt.
Barry Bogart, EN2*
Bob Bolger Cdr., USN* (Ret.)
M.T. Boone*
Benny Booth
David Borden*
Carl Bowman
Vern Boyd*
David M. Bradley, LCdr.*
Robert Bradley, Lt. USNR - inactive
Robert Friar Tuck Brant, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Briggs*
Carlyle J. Brown, EN2*
Donald Brown, RD3
Kenneth "Buck" Buchholz, GMM3*
Michael C. Burton
Tom Burton
Joe Cahill, Jr., Lt.*
Jack L. Carlson, Lt., USNR*
James Carter
Billy Carwile, EN3*
Virgil Chambers, RD3
Jack Chenoweth, Capt., USNR, (Ret.)*
William Colgan, RD3*
Bill Collins*
Daniel K. Corbett, Lt., USNR*
James M. Corrigan, QM3*
Terry Cosstello, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Tom Costarino
Toi Dang, GM3
John H. Davis, Lt.*
William K. Daybert,Cdr.*
James Deal*
Richard Dodson, Capt., USN (Ret.)
John Dooley, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Dale Duffield, CWO USN (Ret.)*
Robert G. Elder, Lt.*
George M. Elliott, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Bill Eshelman
Claude Farmer, Cdr., USNR (Ret.)
Michael Fasold
William Ferris, Capt., USNR (Ret.)
Wallace Benjamin Foreman, QM1, USN (Ret.)*
William T. Ferris, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
James Foster, GMG1, USN (Ret.)
William E. Franke, Lt.jg*
Robert L. Franson, BMCS (SW)*
Alfred J. French, III, Capt., JAGC, USNR (Ret.)*
Paul F. Fulcomer, RD3*
Ray Fuller, GMG3*
Steve Fulton, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Mike Gann, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Steve Gardner*
Bill Garlow*
Les Garrett*
Tony Gisclair, BOSN2*
Robert Gnau, QM2*
Donald Goldberg*
Morton Golde, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Golden*
Gerald L. Good, Lt. USN*
Roy Graham
John C. Graves*
Charles E. Green, ENCM, USN (Ret.)*
Dennis L. Green, GMG*
H.C. Griffin, Jr., Lt. USNR*
I.B.S. (Boyd) Groves, Jr.*
Charles R. Grutzius, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
F.L. Skip "Mustang Sally" Gunther, Lt. USN*
Louis Hahn ETCM (SW) USN (Ret.)
Bill Halpin, Lt. USNR (Ret.)*
Don C. Hammer, Lt.*
Rock Harmon*
Keith C. Harris, RD2*
Stewart M. Harris, Lt., USN*
Stirlin Harris, BM2*
Gene Hart, RD3*
Bob Hastings*
Curt Hatler*
John Hecker, RD3*
Chuck Herman, RD3*
Raul Herrera*
Tom Herritage*
Grant "Skip" Hibbard*
Bill Hickey
Rocky Hildreth*
Gary Hite
Jim Hoffmann, RD3
Roy Hoffmann, Adm., USN (Ret.)*
William P. Holden, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Wayland Holloway, Lt. USNR*
Duane Holman, QM2
Robert Hooke, Lt.*
Bill Hoole
Andy Horne*
John Howell*
Warren Hudson*
Charles W. Hunt, EN3*
Robert Hunt*
Gail E. "Ike" Ikerd, Cdr. (Ret.)*
Bert Jeffries, QM3
Richard Jenkins
John Paul Jones, QM3*
Tom Jones*
Eddie Kajioka ENCS, USN (Ret.)*
John L. Kipp, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Thomas H. Klemash*
Kenneth Knipple, EN1*
Robert Koger, QM2*
Mike Kovanen, RD3*
Bob Kreyer, GMG2*
Jack K. Lane, GMG3*
William T. Langham*
William Lannom*
Alan Lapat
Joseph R. Lavoie, II CWO2 (BOSN), USN (Ret.)*
Louis Letson, LCdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jim Madden, RD3*
William S. Mann, Jr., Lt.jg*
Jim Marohn, GMG3*
Douglas Martin, Lt. USNR*
Tom Mason, Lt.*
Donald Matras, EN2 (Ret.)*
Thomas Mason, Lt.*
Louis Masterson*
Donald Matras, EN3
Richard McFarland, Lt. USNR*
Kenneth B. McGhee*
James McNeal, ENC*
Errol Meleander, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jack Merkley, Lt.*
James M. Miller*
John Miller, ENC (Ret.)
Martin Miller, ENC (Ret.)*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3*
Edward Morgan, Capt. USN*
Edgar (Ed) M. Morrill, Jr.*
Tom Morrill, EN3*
Wayne H. Moser*
Kurt Moss, Lt. J.G.*
Frank Mueller*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Ed Mundy*
Van Odell, GMG1
Richard Olsen, Lt.*
Richard O'Mara, RD2, USN
John O'Neill, Lt., USN, (Ret.)*
Albert Owens*
Tedd Peck, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Richard Pees, Lt., USNR
James Penkert, ENC
Thomas Petersik
Robert Phalen, GMG2*
Charles Plumley*
Joseph L. Ponder, GMG-2, USN (Ret.)*
Chuck Rabel*
Bob Reller
Steve Renfro, RD3, USN (Ret.)
Don Renshaw, EN2, USN PCF 93
Frank Rockwell
Bill Rogers, Lt.*
Patrick Sage GMG3*
Gary W. Sallee, BM2*
Burke Salsi, RD2
Joe Sandoval, GMG3*
Jimmy W. Sanford, RD3*
Robert Scattergood*
Jim Schneider, EN2*
Clair J. (Pete) Schrodt, Capt. USN (Ret.)*
Jack Shamley*
Patrick Sheedy, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Paul Shepherd, QM2*
Robert B. Shirley, Lt.jg*
William Shumadine*
Stanley G. Simonson, GMG2*
John Singleton, ENC
Darryl Skuce, GMG2*
John J. Skura*
Gerald H. Smith*
Bob Smith, GMG2
Gerald Smith
Roy Smith*
B. Tony Snesko BM2*
Mike Solhaug*
Dennis Spranger
Jack Spratt, LCDR*
David R. Stefferud, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
James Steffes*
Fred E. Stith, USN (Ret.)*
Lawrence Stoneberg, Lt. USN (Ret.)*
Weymouth Symmes, RDM*
Tony Taylor
W.P. "Sonny" Taylor*
Dewey Thedford
James P. Thomas*
Eldon Thompson, Lt.jg*
Larry Thurlow, Lt.jg
Joseph Timmons, RD3, USN
Charles R. Tinstman, ENC*
Gary E. Townsend*
William F. Trainer*
Mark Tuft, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Michael Turley, BM2*
Chris J. Vedborg, RD3*
Jeffrey M. Wainscott, Lt.jg*
David Wallace*
Greg Ward, EN2*
Larry J. Waz Wasikowski, Cdr. U.S. Naval Reserve*
Pete Webster*
Robert T. Wedge, Jr., QM1, USN (Ret.)*
Steven Weekley, GMG, QM3*
George Wendell, En1, USN (Ret.)
Bruce Wentworth, Lt., USNR
George H. White, II*
R. Shelton White, Lt.*
Gary K. Whittington, EN3*
James D. Wiggins*
Tom Wilkins
Thomas A. Withey, Lt.*
Bernard Wolff*
Thomas W. Wright, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
John Wyatt, GMG*
John Yeoman, Lt.*Ex Officio (other military):Ross Barker, Capt. USN (Ret.)
Joe Cantrell, Lt.jg, USNR
Allan Clapp, ETR3, USN
George Clatterbuck, CMSgt. USAF, Ret.
Tony DeLuna
David Desiderio, Cdr., USCG (Ret.)
Verne DeWitt, MR1
Jim Fitzgerald
Monte Gluck
Don Higgins
Larry Hobson
Robert Johnson
Walter Jones, USMC
Adrian Lonsdale, Capt., USCG (Ret.)
David P. Marion, CPT Infantry, US Army*
Larry Meyer*
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3*
Denny O'Brien
Cordelia Ogrinz, in memory of her brother Alexander J. Ogrinz, III, Lt.*
Rex Rectanus, VADM, USN (Ret.)*
Skip Ridley*
Jennings Rogerson II, Capt. USMC* (Ret.)
John Slagle, Special agent, USBP (Ret.)
Patrick Stevenson, Army Special Forces (Ret.)
Emmett Tidd, Vice Admiral, USN, (Ret.)*
Leslie "Butch" Vorphal, RD3, USN PCF 3
Steve Watts, Army
Dennis D. Willess, EN3, Army Infantry*
Raymond Wroten, SSgt., USMC (Ret.)
James M. Zumwalt in memory of Elmo Zumwalt, Sr. and Elmo Zumwalt, Jr, his father and brother*----------
* = signed original letter, presented May 4, 2004Swift Vets and POWs for Truth - Swift Veterans Letter to John KerryKerry Reneges on Promise to Release Military Records
Dave Eberhart and Chuck Noe, NewsMax.com
Wednesday, April 21, 2004http://www.newsmax.com/...es/articles/2004/4/20/171506.shtmlThis message has been edited by whatever, 09-01-2004 01:57 AM

To repeat - I can't sue them for libel or slander, not being the defamed party; Kerry can't sue them because as a politician he has little protection against defamation. A) What lies?
b) How have they "bounced off"?What's been "bouncing off" you and Bush has been the truth; that is, that Bush is a mendacious coward.And of course, Bush does attack those who tell lies about him; the controversy about the internet ads that compared him to Hitler, for instance. What's unacceptable about pointing out liars as liars? What's unacceptable about attacking those who would be their accomplices in defamation? Kerry has done (a), as we showed you, but you've already told us that you didn't want to hear it. I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that if you ignore Kerry when he presents evidence, you're entitled to say he didn't do it at all. That's kindergarten logic.

or it takes a viscious threat to the rest of his career on the order of the smear campaign bush did on him, and the knowledge that being inside can help prevent catastrophe better than being on the outside.Note that McCain when asked if Kerry would make a good president replied promptly in the affirmative, and he went on to list the reasons.When asked why he was supporting bush he hesitated and equivocated, saying in effect that he had made it through 4 years ... hardly a ringing endorsement.ORsomebody else did the job and not bush?

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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