Chiroptera, I find it interesting it may or may not be in the Constitution, apparently Thomas Jefferson, declared this message to all the world, that God is the author of those rights (implying the bill of rights), and not president, King, nor supreme court justice abridge those rights, etc...P.S. I sure hope your wrong that those rights can be amended out of the constitution, etc...The right to bear arms, to believe in God, to own property, freedom of speech, etc...http://www.dreamwater.com/raferty/pr_rights.htmlIt was upon this same rock solid conviction that Thomas Jefferson declared to all the world:"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness [the right and control of property]. "That is, since God is the author of our Rights - no King or President, no House of Lords or Senate, no House of Commons or House of Representative, no Supreme Court or unelected bureaucrat, can ever abridge those rights.This message has been edited by whatever, 08-28-2004 06:53 PMThis message has been edited by whatever, 08-28-2004 06:58 PM

You do understand that the Creator that Jefferson was speaking of was not the Christian God. And that Jefferson, in particular, wanted to make sure that religion played no part in government.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, whatever, here is the text of Article V of the U.S. Constitution: Do you see any restrictions as to how amendments can be affected?As far as Thomas Jefferson, do you realize that his god was the deist god? Jefferson did not believe in the Christian God. At the beginning of the Declaration of Independence is the line: To someone who knows a little bit about the philosophy of the Enlightenment, the phase "Nature's God" is a tip off that they are not appealing to the Christian God. Notice how "the laws of nature" are given equal billing. At the end, we have the phrase Again, in terms of the Enlightnment, this call on "Providence" is another way of avoiding calling on the Christian God.IF you still aren't convinced, Thomas Jefferson rewrote the Bible, removing the miracles and divinity of Jesus, and the supernatural elements. No, Jefferson certainly was not a believer in Christianity. In his view, human rights were an inalienable part of what it is to be human, but as a natural part of the human constitution, not something granted divinely.

WHOA BOY!Where do you get off adding "[the right and control of property]" to the Declaration of Independence? IT AINT THERE!There are only 3 rights listed as unalienable: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. PERIOD. The right to equality is given as "self evident" -- logically derived. The right of the people to abolish the government when it becomes destructive comes from the removal of the consent of the governed, ie from the people:http://www.archives.gov/...rters/declaration_transcript.html All other rights, such as those in the "Bill of RIGHTS" (first ten amendments) are established by the government of the people, by the people, for the people. The constitution is specific and has no reference to god or religion other than to say it doesn't mix with government (separation of church and state).Obviously such constitutional rights can be changed (and added to and subtracted from) by later constitutional amendments. The right of women to vote is one, civil rights is another.Notice that these additional rights that expand the legal rights of all Americans are brought to you courtesy of the liberals. I have yet to figure out how expanded rights for all reduces or takes away our rights, but then the logic of your positions are dubious at best.Also notice that the one document that has reduced our rights is the so-called "Patriot" act brought to you by the neocon administration, and it had to be toned down until it was acceptable to enough conservatives to pass.Finally, the Declaration of Independence is not a law or a legal document, nor does it form a basis for laws. It is just a Declaration, signed by a few men (farsighted and courageous men).ps - Notice that the god that is referred to in the Declaration of Independence is the "natural god" of "natural laws" -- the opening paragraph is: Care to hazard a guess what god was being referred to there?Do TRY to get it right, eh?

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

aww ya gave it away. Does what ever consider that he may be way off base?heh

Whatever, is it more easy or less easy for the government to wiretap your phones without probably cause before GWB was president or after?Did the government have the right to detain you indefinitely without due process before GWB was president or after?Did the government have the right to arrest you for reading certain books before GWB was president or after?

quote:

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...The bottom line Kerry will have to increase taxes,

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No shit.It's called a huge TRADE DEFICIT and a huge NATIONAL DEBT.GWB inherited a large SURPLUS that he completely squandered.Also, his tax cut RAISES the tax burden upon the middle class, and LOWERS the tax burden for the weathiest Americans.Are you a millionaire, Whatever?

It's "tortured", not "torchered".

Jar, I'm not to crazy about religion, and neither were our Christian founding fathers, was not this was the purpose of the Constitution, so one could worship God without the government interfering with the free exercise thereof, its known that its not separation of the Church from being involved in government, but the separation of the government from christian churches, when Jefferson said that God is the author of those rights, he was not speaking to any particular christian church, but to all Christians that were responsible for the Constitution, that he was proclaiming to the world that God is the author of our bill of rights(giving God the glory), to protect churches, from the threat of government turning on them, and their freedoms, for churches to beable to be involved in the government , and be protected from the government(Jeffersons stating enjoy a separation protection from government interference), etc...P.S. It quite obvious that Jefferson was talking about the Christian religions(all the different christian denominations that fled religious persecution for their belief in Christ and not in the doctrines of the Government sponsored church), religion was never intended to include the occult sects (Hindu, buddist, muslims, and other satanic sects that don't believe in God), interestingly if one followed the constitution with Jeffersons inference to the world the rights are from God, one could possibly exclude these rights to cults not of the Christian flavors, cause like Jefferson said our rights are from God (not from budda, hindu, allah, satan, but our rights are from God, and he announced this proclamation to the entire pagan world, that God is the author of the bill of rights, so that their pagan beliefs would not be confused with their pagan gods getting the glory, the credit, etc...

whateverYou don't have a clue what you are talking about. And guess what

Once Again,You're Wrong!!!

Bullshit.Here is what he thought of Christianity. Actually, once again you are simply showing you don't know what you're talking about.Here is what TJ had to say about Infidels, Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists. Do you ever bother to check on any of the stupid assertions you make or do you just enjoy being proven wrong every time you make a post?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, I'm quite poor financially, thats why I'm voting for George, its called job creation, verses jobs fleeing for safer harbors, look at california, with their high cost for water, electricity, and the industries fleeing california, because of the democrats environmental laws, etc...the people in frustration finally got rid of the democrat governor, and Arnolds having to resort to calling the democrats girlie men, just to get their attention, and the democrats were offended but the people cheered cause of the democrats being the reason for their high utility costs, and bankrupting the great state of california, we don't need a democratic presidency to raise taxes and increase America bankruptcy, etc...P.S. I see no basis for democrats preventing electric power plants construction, other than they are being controlled by special interests, like the environmentalists, that are not in favor of building new oil refineries, power plants, or allowing the drilling for our own oil in our own country, etc...

Jar, I think your talking about the Virginia State constitution, not the US constitution ?, wasn't aware the TJ signed the US Constitution, or played a part with the Bill of Rights, thought he was the governor of Virginia, so he never crafted the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, just announcing to the world the founding fathers not even taking the glory of the crafting of the Bill of Rights but that God was the Author of the Bill of Rights. Thomas Jefferson incorrectly interpreted this to include pagan religions in the Virgina constitution, its quite interesting how quickly the Virginia constitution got subverted, to the inclusions of occults, and infidels, that clearly are not of the Christian flavors, etc...P.S. Your kind of saying that Jefferson had his own interpretation of the scriptures, so might of been sliding down the slippery slope, in regards to the Virginia Constitution, like did they consult the founding fathers of the Bill of Rights what they regarded as a religion?, etc...Its interesting, but true that the bill of rights were authored by God, taken from Christian bible, its not right to take credit for someone else authorship(is it), even here at EVC(right), and Credit was given to (God)for from where they drew up the Bill of Rights, that TJ announced to the whole world that the Christian God the credit for authorship, cause they drew from the Christian bible(no different than giving credit to a link here at EVC), this all proves that our founding fathers were Christians deeply involved in the founding of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, TJ probably was being a bit sarcastic in announcing to the whole world, but even so, God was given the credit, cause it was taken from the bible, etc...Chuck Baldwin -- Bible Inspired America's Founding DocumentsBIBLE INSPIRED AMERICA'S FOUNDING DOCUMENTSBy Pastor Chuck BaldwinMay 30, 2003NewsWithViews.comThis message has been edited by whatever, 08-28-2004 09:52 PMThis message has been edited by whatever, 08-28-2004 09:55 PM

WOW!
Can you believe it, whatever doesn't know what he's talking about.Surprise. The US Constiution was ratified, not signed. The US Constitution was based in a large part on the Virgina Constitution and the Bill of Rights was most definitely the product of the three great Virginia delegates.The Virginia Constitution Pre-dated the US Constitution and even the US Declaration of Independance.So what he wrote in regard to the Virginia Constitution was before he wrote the draft of the US Declaration of Independance and when he metioned GOD there he most certainly meant those Pagan Gods as well.No wonder you support Bush. You know as little about US history as he does.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Oh, don't worry about me giving anything away. I doubt that whatever actually reads the responses he gets. Or if he does, and it goes against his prior beliefs he doesn't seem to understand it and skips over it.But, by the gods, I enjoy his posts!

Pagan?Deism - Wikipedia a list of deists:List of deists - Wikipedia meanwhilePaganism - Wikipedia If Deism is paganism then all religions are paganismsheeshwhatever is blowing smoke in one ear and out the other.

he should enter the "Last Comic Standing" contest. {added}:ps -- he did get it wrong. very wrong. whatever wrong.heh.This message has been edited by RAZD, 08-28-2004 10:00 PM

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}