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Author Topic:   New Book: Kerry ‘Unfit for Command’
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 346 of 612 (137626)
08-28-2004 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by crashfrog
08-28-2004 12:32 PM


heroic enough for me
fits my criteria for heroic. Of course who am I to judge that when he has the medals to show for it ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by crashfrog, posted 08-28-2004 12:32 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by johnfolton, posted 08-28-2004 1:45 PM RAZD has replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 347 of 612 (137633)
08-28-2004 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by RAZD
08-28-2004 12:36 PM


Razd, Benedict Arnold was medaled too, A General in the US army, proving being medaled doesn't make one a patriot, Kerry vote 98 times to raise taxes on the middle class, Kerry sold our hardened nuclear chip satellight technology to China, he testified he was in Cambodia on Christmas eve, when he was in fact not, he said this memory was seared in his mind, when its obvious it was not, there is what kerry says and then their is what kerry does, etc...
P.S. If you feel Kerry would put our soldiers under UN command, then you must vote for George, cause either were a soveign nation or were not, etc...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by RAZD, posted 08-28-2004 12:36 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Chiroptera, posted 08-28-2004 2:12 PM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 351 by nator, posted 08-28-2004 3:05 PM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 353 by RAZD, posted 08-28-2004 3:25 PM johnfolton has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 348 of 612 (137635)
08-28-2004 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by johnfolton
08-28-2004 1:45 PM


Re:
Actually, Benedict Arnold returned his loyalty to his lawful Sovereign, King George III. Being British subjects, and enjoying the rights of other Englishmen, it was George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, etc. who were the traitors.
-
quote:
If you feel Kerry would put our soldiers under UN command....
Oh, that reminds me, you still haven't answered my previous questions:
quote:
The U.N. Charter declares that all human rights are derived from the U.N.
Where does it say that?
-
quote:
Our Constitution and Declaration of Independence declare that all human rights are God-given and that no man or government can abridge them.
Where does the U.S. Constitution say that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by johnfolton, posted 08-28-2004 1:45 PM johnfolton has not replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 349 of 612 (137636)
08-28-2004 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Chiroptera
08-28-2004 9:18 AM


Re: Patriotism (GWB) US Constitution or Globalism (JFK) UN Constitution
http://www.classbrain.com/artteenst/publish/article_75.shtml
US Constitution & The Bill Of Rights
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill of Rights - Amendments 1-10 of the Constitution
By Congress
May 19, 2004, 1:44pm
Chiroptera, You should also question why the United States is not allowed to vote on the UN Human rights commission. If you like the freedoms in America, you better vote for the candidate that shares your belief in the freedoms therein, etc...
UN human rights vote fuels US-Europe conflict - World Socialist Web Site
Senator Jesse Helms, the North Carolina Republican who is chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee who normally finds communist conspiracies everywhere, found a different target this time, declaring, a few European countries maneuveredin a secret voteto eliminate the United States from the United Nations Human Rights Commission.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Chiroptera, posted 08-28-2004 9:18 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Chiroptera, posted 08-28-2004 2:51 PM johnfolton has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 350 of 612 (137644)
08-28-2004 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by johnfolton
08-28-2004 2:13 PM


whatever is closer
Hello, whatever.
I read the first link. It is a list of the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution, what are normally called the Bill of Rights. In none of those amendments does it ever say that the rights enjoyed by Americans are God-given. Nor does it say that these rights cannot be abridged - in fact, the Constitution gives a procedure by which the Constitution can be amended - these amendments can abridge rights granted by the Constitution.
--
The other link is about the U.N. Human Rights Commission. This is a committee made up of U.N. member nations. The seats on this committee are for set terms. The U.S. was a member of this committee, but in 2001 its term expired, along with 13 other nations' memberships. When the U.N. member nations voted to fill those seats, the U.S. was not one of the chosen.
So, two points: Do you feel that the U.S. has an automatic right to sit on this committee? The quote you supplied seems to indicate that Sen. Helms thinks the U.S. has such an automatic right. Why do you feel this way?
And, do you realize this article is several years old? A couple of years ago, several more seats became vacant as the terms expired, and the U.S. was selected to fill one of those seats, so the U.S. is, once again, a member of this committee. So what is your point?
--
At any rate we have a conclusion: unlike your previous statement, the U.S. constitution does not claim that Americans' rights are God given, and a procedure exists, in the Constitution, to amend the Constitution to abridge those rights.
Now, you still have not given any evidence of your claim that the U.N. charter claims that all human rights derive from the U.N. May we assume that you are mistaken here as well?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by johnfolton, posted 08-28-2004 2:13 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by johnfolton, posted 08-28-2004 6:45 PM Chiroptera has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 351 of 612 (137647)
08-28-2004 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by johnfolton
08-28-2004 1:45 PM


Re:
quote:
Kerry vote 98 times to raise taxes on the middle class,
Um, that's vague.
Can you put some of these votes in context for us, whatever?
Pick 10 and break them down.
quote:
Kerry sold our hardened nuclear chip satellight technology to China
UM, isn't China our Most Favored Nation WRT trade?
Why can't we trade with our most favored nation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by johnfolton, posted 08-28-2004 1:45 PM johnfolton has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Chiroptera, posted 08-28-2004 3:11 PM nator has not replied
 Message 354 by RAZD, posted 08-28-2004 3:26 PM nator has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 352 of 612 (137648)
08-28-2004 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by nator
08-28-2004 3:05 PM


Re:
quote:
UM, isn't China our Most Favored Nation WRT trade?
Why can't we trade with our most favored nation?
A relationship that was promoted by very important Republicans as well as Democrats, I might add. (Oh, wait, I have added this ).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by nator, posted 08-28-2004 3:05 PM nator has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 353 of 612 (137653)
08-28-2004 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by johnfolton
08-28-2004 1:45 PM


The Real Benedict Arnold
US soldiers are currently under UN command in a couple of arenas.
Guess George IS a traitor instead of just may be ... with your (absent without leave) logic.
Benedict became a general in the revolution under suspicious circumstances and before the actual founding of this country, and he was "patriotic" to himself first and foremost. The end of his military service came when he was courtmarshalled and found guilty of several crimes. Certainly he was guilty of fraud, embezzlement and oppression.
from IIS 10.0 Detailed Error - 404.0 - Not Found
Another French commander thought only one highly placed American traitor was needed to decide the campaign. (16)
By then Clinton had, in fact, found his highly placed traitor in Benedict Arnold. Money is this man’s god, one of his enemies had said of Arnold, earlier and evidently he was correct.
In a letter dated 18th October 1780, shortly after Arnold fled to the British, Washington penned this letter: Arnold’s conduct is so villainously perfidious, that there are no terms that can describe the baseness of his heart. The confidence and folly, which have marked the subsequent career of this man are of a piece with his villany (sic) and all three are perfect in their kind. (17)
Benedict Arnold stared his life as a sadistic bully and went on to become a malcontent, a liar, an embezzler, and yes, a TRAITOR to this country — and don’t you ever forget it!
Now I am not going to say that George is as bad a self-serving venal liar as Benedict, as I leave such misdirected hyperbole to the Bush campaign and his supporters. And in truth, reading the truth about Benedict sure puts him head and shoulders above W in the depth of his malfeasance and treacherous heart, but I do think there are more similarities between shrubby and Benedict than there are between Kerry and Benedict.
Shrub is selling america to the rich and powerful, lock, stock and barrel. You may not think that is treacherous, but it sure is NOT patriotic.
Try to find a little reality in the things you say, please: this continued drivel of madness does not speak well for any other supporters of bush ... unless it is typical.
sheesh.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by johnfolton, posted 08-28-2004 1:45 PM johnfolton has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 354 of 612 (137654)
08-28-2004 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by nator
08-28-2004 3:05 PM


Re:
95 of the tax increases were all in one bill. another grubby shrubby distortion. The bill passed with republican majority of votes.
lies and distortions.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 08-28-2004 02:27 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by nator, posted 08-28-2004 3:05 PM nator has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 355 of 612 (137665)
08-28-2004 4:35 PM


Bush and Justice: Foot Soldiers Always Take the Fall
New article:
Published on Friday, August 27, 2004 by the International Herald Tribune
Bush and Justice: Foot Soldiers Always Take the Fall
by Dahlia Lithwick
It has been four months since the photos from Abu Ghraib came to light, and we Americans still can't decide what to make of them. Yes, they're appalling. But who's to blame? With the release of two new reports this week, we still can't quite connect the torture and abuse to the commander in chief or his defense secretary; we still can't quite find that smoking gun.
Because there's never going to be a smoking gun.
If you're waiting around for evidence of the phone call from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to Private First Class Lynndie England - the one where he instructs her to pile up a bunch of naked, hooded men and strike a queen-of-the-mountain pose - you'll wait forever. That's not how armies function. It ignores the realities of the chain of command, and the cha-cha of plausible deniability.
The report this week by the James Schlesinger panel offers the closest thing we'll get to a smoking gun. Connect the dots, and it's all there: The sadism at Abu Ghraib stemmed from "confusion." Confusion sounds accidental - like maybe it just blew in off the Atlantic - but the report is clear that this confusion resulted from systemic failures at the highest levels. The report faults ambiguous interrogation mandates, an inadequate postwar plan, poor training and a lack of oversight. It notes that much of this confusion stemmed from the Bush administration posture that the Geneva Conventions applied only where the president saw fit, and that the definition of "interrogation" was up for grabs at Guantnamo Bay, thus possibly at Abu Ghraib.
Or you can put your ear right up to the horse's mouth, where - even before the Schlesinger report - Rumsfeld owned the blame. "These events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defense, I am accountable for them and I take full responsibility," he told the Senate Armed Services Committee in May. But we live in an era when such words are intended to signify simultaneous culpability and absolution.
Schlesinger's insistence that Rumsfeld not leave office - because his departure would "be a boon to all of America's enemies" - is a pragmatic argument. It doesn't even pretend to be a just one.
Americans can choose to connect these dots, or cast their votes in November based on whether Colonel Mustard was in a Swift boat with a lead pipe. But Abu Ghraib can't be blamed solely on bad apples anymore. It was the direct consequence of an administration ready to bargain away the rule of law. That started with the suspension of basic prisoner protections because this was a "new kind of war." It led to the creation of a legal sinkhole on Guantnamo. And it reached its zenith when high officials opined that torture isn't torture unless there's some attendant organ failure.
There is a sad, familiar echo behind the Abu Ghraib prosecutions. This is precisely the approach the administration has used throughout the so-called terror trials here in America. Behind virtually every prosecution of an Al Qaeda member since Sept. 11, there's been an overhyped, overcharged foot soldier taking the fall for his invisible superiors. From the losers making up the so-called Portland Seven to the Virginia "jihad network," all we've achieved in America's courts is a lot of pretrial chest thumping by the Justice Department, followed by relatively short sentences for a handful of malcontents who watched training videos or played paintball.
The ranking terrorists we do catch? They disappear into yet more law-free zones for further interrogation. The same intelligence-at-any-price culture that led the United States to Abu Ghraib keeps the real terrorists from ever being held to account.
Such is the beauty of an army: The little guy can always get tagged as a proxy for the big guy. Does any of this suffice as justice? In the terror trials, it must: We convict low-level Qaeda members as ringleaders because we can't catch - or won't prosecute - their bosses. It's not just, but it's satisfying. Convicting low-level American soldiers as ringleaders to protect their bosses is neither just nor satisfying. It's just easy.
Dahlia Lithwick is a senior editor at the online magazine Slate.
Copyright 2004 the International Herald Tribune
I love the phrase "Americans can choose to connect these dots, or cast their votes in November based on whether Colonel Mustard was in a Swift boat with a lead pipe. But Abu Ghraib can't be blamed solely on bad apples anymore. It was the direct consequence of an administration ready to bargain away the rule of law."
enjoy.
{fixed italics}
This message has been edited by RAZD, 08-28-2004 05:57 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by johnfolton, posted 08-28-2004 7:28 PM RAZD has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 356 of 612 (137705)
08-28-2004 5:41 PM


Bush campaign connections to SBVs
Bush says there are no connections between his campaign and the swift boat veterans ("SBV" in the chart linked below)
From http://www.johnkerry.com/...room/releases/pr_2004_0826b.html
Kerry-Edwards campaign manager Mary Beth Cahill wrote the following letter to Bush-Cheney campaign manager Ken Mehlman today:
Dear Mr. Mehlman:
For three weeks now, your campaign has been saying there are no ties between the Bush campaign and Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. But the web of connections grows wider and wider every day. Yesterday we saw confirmation of another connection when your general counsel, Benjamin Ginsberg, was forced to resign for providing legal advice for this group.
Enclosed you will find a chart that makes clear the web of connections between President Bush and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Now that you have this chart and the accompanying fact sheet to back it up, I wanted to ask you several specific questions that deserve your prompt response.
(Read the whole article for those questions)
These questions go to the heart of why so many people now believe that Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is nothing more than a front group for the Bush-Cheney campaign. The longer President Bush waits to specifically condemn this smear, the more it looks like he’s behind it.
See the following link for the chart (pdf document)
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/web_of_connections.pdf
Such connections are illegal, but that has never stopped the neocons before ...
Any questions?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 357 of 612 (137708)
08-28-2004 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Chiroptera
08-28-2004 2:51 PM


It appears your all saying the constitution can be amended, to the taking of your rights, and that we all don't want these freedoms to be amended away, cause of the threat the terrorist pose, etc...
P.S. You have to ponder the threat globalist pretending to be democrats like our John Kerry, gifting our sensitive nucleur secrets to China, aiding comfort to the enemy, makes him the best candidate to prevent the constitution from being amended to the taking away of your rights, under the bill of rights, if Kerry would put our soldiers under UN leadership, would not the UN bill the US for services rendered. This means massive tax increases to support them and theirs and not us and ours, etc... You have only one choice but to vote for patriotism, for us and ours, GWB is the man, Kerry is the scam, the scam is increased taxes necessary to empower a World System, which is not beneficial to us and ours, etc...
History gives examples of what happens when one lowers their guard, WW2... Chamberlain rubbing noses with Hitler, Presently Kerry rubbing noses with China...Clinton/Kerry to the gifting satellight technology to China, etc...
On another note: GWB adds say Kerry voted to increase taxes including *social security*, etc...The bottom line Kerry will have to increase taxes, might be gas tax, social security tax, or will he create a world tax, GWB, however, has cut social programs, cut taxes, didn't bend to the implications of the UN global warming agenda, and screw the american people to the globalist warming garbage, however GWB by cutting taxes leave the democrats no option but to increase taxes, to fund their proposed social programs, and that means you will be losing more from your budget, etc... I do kind of feel for you democrats, cause its as if its your political party has been taken over by the globalists, supporting free lunches (for not working, getting money), its not suprising that Kerry feels he deserves a salary for time not served in the senate, cause thats what the social programs of the democrats are all about, girls getting pregnant to recieve more moneys, so they don't need to seek employment, and need not get married, cause its the democrats solution to pay people to not work, etc...It all reminds me of democrat environmentalisms, pouring good water into the californian deserts to grow oranges while there is a shortage of water in the californian cities, and to prevent electric powerplants from being built in california, so to ration electricity and create high electric bills, etc...The democrats have all these solutions that just creates shortages, in supplying the needs of the american people, oil shortages, water shortages, electrical shortages, these all weigh on the american budget, which the democrats appear to be saying is good, cause to them its about the mother earth senereo, and not the well being of the american citizens. It probably cause the democrats are supportive of global beliefs in global warming, which again is treasonous to the american citizens that are on a budget, to find everything high cause supply (new power plants, New oil refineries, alternative energy) is not being addressed cause that would affect demand, and the outsourcing of american jobs on the Clinton watch, cause of their (globalist democrats) hatred of big buisness, and their polluting the earth, etc... Mexico is grateful, and has taken up the pollution of the atmosphere, as has china, so proving the democrats have actually accelerated the pollution of the earth, by their part of the outsourcing of our industries to the third world countries(clintons responsible for: (GATT, and NAFTA treaties, etc...), etc... Clinton kept telling the american people that we are a global community, what you need to do, is to vote to remain a soverign nation within the global community, where our laws are soverign and not their laws soverign over ours, need to keep it all fair, but without sacrificing our soverigty, etc...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Chiroptera, posted 08-28-2004 2:51 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by RAZD, posted 08-28-2004 6:59 PM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 359 by Chiroptera, posted 08-28-2004 7:00 PM johnfolton has replied
 Message 366 by nator, posted 08-28-2004 8:59 PM johnfolton has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 358 of 612 (137709)
08-28-2004 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by johnfolton
08-28-2004 6:45 PM


Re: pied piper plays whatever follows
see post on Bush topic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by johnfolton, posted 08-28-2004 6:45 PM johnfolton has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 359 of 612 (137710)
08-28-2004 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by johnfolton
08-28-2004 6:45 PM


whatever still doesn't get it
quote:
It appears your all saying the constitution can be amended, to the taking of your rights, and that we all don't want these freedoms to be amended away, cause of the threat the terrorist pose, etc...
Whoa, there, whatever. One thing at a time. In this post you made the claim that the U.S. Constitution "states that all human rights are God given and no government can abridge them." Not only does the U.S. Constitution not state that all human rights are God given, but the amendment procedures in Article V implicitly acknowledges that any rights can be abridged or eliminated.
Before, we move on to your other, er, statements why don't we all just admit that you have not read the U.S. Constitution, you don't understand the Constitution, and you have very little knowledge of Constitutional law?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by johnfolton, posted 08-28-2004 6:45 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by johnfolton, posted 08-28-2004 7:50 PM Chiroptera has replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 360 of 612 (137714)
08-28-2004 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by RAZD
08-28-2004 4:35 PM


Razd, Truly Kerry is unfit for command, its up to the president to absolve (pardon), however, Donald apparently didn't aid comfort to the enemy, its treasonous to be aiding comfort to the enemy(do you want us to give them a swimming pool, cushy pillows, etc... in the vietnam war our prisoners were naked, in isolation, torchered, starved, etc..., Kerry did the same garbage of accusing president Nixon, in testifying before congress in respect to the Vietnam War, aiding comfort propaganda to the enemy, and not comforting our soldiers being torchered, in this case Kerry is aiding comfort to the Iraq prisoners, who are the enemy in respect to this war effort. It all supports my premise that Kerry is a globalists, and cares not for us and ours, to be attacking one of our own, etc...Donald led us to victory, but interestingly Kerry attacks one of the most Patriotic americans on the planet, it no wonder the Vets are against Kerry, etc...
P.S. How many nations attack, and then give the country back to the nation they attacked, etc...If the Palistinians attacked Israel and won, they would take no prisoners, do you feel this is right, if another nation conquerored america, do you think they would care what you feel about your rights, etc...Kerry is playing with your feelings, like chamberlain, saying he had the answers, which is what the enemy that wants to take your freedoms so we will lower our guard, as they litigate away your rights, freedoms, etc...
This message has been edited by whatever, 08-28-2004 06:30 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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