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Author Topic:   Is our universe stationary ?
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 4 of 69 (136527)
08-24-2004 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nipok
08-24-2004 5:43 AM


nipok writes:
If the big bang was in fact caused by all matter we know of to have originally been contained in a single location and then it would have been stationary yes?
Wait, why? Why couldn't the singularity be moving before the BB?
Lets say that our universe is in motion.
The problem is that there is no way known to man to be able to detect such universal motion or to disprove it.
I mentioned somewhere before that once upon a time there was hope to do this. Unfortunately, the ether was impossible to detect and the idea was just abandoned.
In theory if a star was moving through our space time towards the ending edge of our universe that being the point of our universe farthest away from the front of the trajectory could it break free from the overall gravitational attraction of our universe and be left behind.
We can detect stars that either move away from us or move toward us by measuring the shift in their light frequencies. It's called a doppler effect.
suppose it could also look like someone throwing a ball in the air and then having gravity pull the ball back if the two velocities were close enough.
Yes, but you wouldn't be detecting the absolute motion. You'd be detecting the motion of the ball relative to the motion of the Earth.
If we take this analogy back to the motion of objects in the universe, we wouldn't be able to detect the universal motion. We'd be detecting the motion of a star relative to the motion of the universe.
So since I believe in an infinite universe and a cataclysmic collision being the actual reason for our big bang and not a point singularity then I submit that in the next 300,600, or maybe 900 years we will have the tools at our disposal to map out so much more of our universe than what we know now.
I see no reason why the BB should be replaced by this cataclysmic collision hypothesis.

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nipok, posted 08-24-2004 5:43 AM nipok has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Tony650, posted 08-24-2004 3:25 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 13 of 69 (136694)
08-25-2004 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by nipok
08-25-2004 2:43 AM


Re: reply to page 1 replies
Could you please provide things other than pure speculations and assertions?
nipok writes:
People are comfortable with our space-time continuum as The Space-Time Continuum because it gives them comfort. They do not want to speculate as to what is outside the pocket of space-time created by our big bang because it offers too many unknowns. So instead they use our space-time to justify a logical limit to space or a limit to time because of that which is relative to us. So really all we need to do to open up their minds is to provide for a second space-time continuum or pocket of self contained space time and we can negate any argument for our known universe being all there is or all there ever will be.
This is completely unscientific. In fact, this is complete nonsense.
People don't like to speculate what's outside of our known universe because there ain't any data to work with. Why start wild guessing if you don't have a clue what the hell is beyond the known universe?
This reminds me of an Outer Limit episode I saw a few years back.
There was this group of humans being held as prisoners by a bunch of robots. This particular group of humans was the last remnant of the human race. Apparently, the human race was conquered by an alien race about 10 generations before this point in the show.
Anyhow, the group is held in a compound surrounded by a very high wall. In other words, after 10 generations or so behind the wall, the humans had absolutely no idea what was beyond the wall. They began to have this myth that beyond the wall were giant monsters and that they were better off inside the wall for an eternity.
After the hero of the story managed to rally a mini-revolution against the robots, they managed to break through the main door and got to see for the first time what was beyond the wall. Well, there were no monsters.
What's the moral of the story? You can let your imagination run wild if you want. When it comes down to it, it ain't scientific. No data or observation to begin with.
Maybe they are right. Maybe our space-time is the only space-time and nothing exists outside the boundaries of what we have been able to detect to date. The general consensus of the scientific community is that the big bang was a point singularity because everything we see in all directions is expanding as if from a central location.
We don't even have any data or observation to even begin speculating on what's beyond the "rim". This is pure fantasy.
I submit there has not been enough time involved in the tracking and analysis of data to even come close to making an accurate assessment of the true catalyst that brought forth our pocket of space-time. So if we can find a way to observe that our space-time continuum is not alone in the entire Universe then we negate any argument against an infinite Universe based solely on the space-time relative to us.
Yes, you are correct. However, until then any speculation on the matter is pure science fiction, nothing more.
So if velocity of our point singularity existed prior to the initial expansion then it must have been traveling inside of another space-time pocket. That is my point. Once we can prove the existence of another space-time pocket outside our known universe then all arguments against an infinite Universe because of the theories of General Relativity become null and void.
Tell us when you've finally solved the problem and win a nobel prize.
I'm sorry if I sound a little harsh, but I really don't see the relevance in the subject. There's nothing we have except pure imagination to suggest anything beyond the known universe.

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by nipok, posted 08-25-2004 2:43 AM nipok has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 14 of 69 (136695)
08-25-2004 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by PaulK
08-24-2004 4:14 PM


PaulK writes:
But to say that space was moving you would have to define a measure of distance that was independant of space. Want to explain how you could do that ?
That's easy. All we need is a magic wand.

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 08-24-2004 4:14 PM PaulK has not replied

  
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