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Author | Topic: Evolution Disproven. | |||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RvX:
[B]Ok, I'm really disgusted, I can't believe what the world has come to...[/QUOTE] When you are finished being disgusted, how about addressing some of the points we have made?
quote: It's not our fault that you don't know anything about Biology, yet feel perfectly comfortable criticizing it. Your ignorance is outpaced only by your arrogance.
quote: Well, we replied to all of what you wrote. Why don't you pick 3 things and respond to them. I'll wait.
quote: That's a nice way to run away from the discuission before it's even begun. Chicken!!! Bock Bock!!!!
quote: LOL!!! No, you haven't. All you have done is assert that evolution has been disproven. You have cited no science, no field reports, no peer-review journal articles. Not even so much as a NY Times editorial!
quote: It's not because you are new here. It's because you have such a uninformed, cartoonish view of Biology that you actually seem to believe. We have heard every one of your "Arguments from Incredulity" many times over, and the fact that you present them simply shows your lack of any real science education. To be uninformed is not reprehensible, but it is terribly shameful to claim something out of willful ignorance rather than from knowledge. If you are truly interested in learning something about science, then read the websites I listed for you. If you are not interested or too frightened to learn about real science, then just realize you are choosing to remain ignorant.
quote: Tell us, how much science education do you have? Are you even out of high school yet? Many of us here have science degrees from university, and a couple of us are practicing academic scientists.
quote: Please explain to us what you think "real" science is, and perhaps we can discuss why you believe the ToE doesn't apply. (Not that I think it is likely that you will stick around to answer this question, or any other)
quote: YES! Didn't you read my reply?? Evolution has been observed!!
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.htmlhttp://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html "Three species of wildflowers called goatsbeards were introduced to the United States from Europe shortly after the turn of the century. Within a few decades their populations expanded and began to encounter one another in the American West. Whenever mixed populations occurred, the specied interbred (hybridizing) producing sterile hybrid offspring. Suddenly, in the late forties two new species of goatsbeard appeared near Pullman, Washington. Although the new species were similar in appearance to the hybrids, they produced fertile offspring. The evolutionary process had created a separate species that could reproduce but not mate with the goatsbeard plants from which it had evolved."
quote: The ToE has nothing to do with the Big Bang. The ToE deals with life once it got here. If you go to bed with no snow on the ground, and wake up the next morning with snow on the ground, do you simply deny that the snow exists because you didn't see any snow falling?? Science makes inferences all the time, just like you do.
quote: We can create evolution in the lab, so you are completely wrong.
quote: You are behaving belligenrently and you are heading towards getting a time out. Simply repeating assertions and ignoring responses from others does not fly here.
quote: Apes didn't evolve to humans, and if you would READ SOME BASIC BIOLOGY, you would learn that utterly basic fact of Evolution. Apes and humans share a common ape-like ancestor.
quote: Who said anything about rejecting God?
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Cobra_snake Inactive Member |
"Actually I would have recommended
http://switch.to/evolution I DID suggest that he read critic material, but you are right- this site would be a good one for a beginner like RvX. "By the way Cobra, if you have time please read my earlier post to RxV. It contains some info concerning 2LOT and evolution that you may find interesting." I did, and I also read your other post a while back before my extended period of a lack of posting or visiting the site. I feel that you have made a good case that the ToE and 2LOT can harmonize, so I will concede that you are either right or I am not knowleadgable enough to argue further. TO RVX: One of the problems with the Creationist community is that many of them are not knowleadgable of the arguments and counter-arguments of the different sides of the debate. I am obviously no genious, but I think I have a bit of basic knowledge of the different positions held. However, a large portion of the Creationist public are people who know little, yet are extremely cocky. Ignorance and arrogance tend to be an annoying combo, and it also makes it easy for people to criticize the creation community. I seriously recommend you read some better material at the links I provided you, as well as some critic material.
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"Ok guys just answer something for me...
Why do you hate Kent Hovind so much?"--Hate is such a strong word. I would rather say it is 'sad', he may be described as a little selfish helpless puppy dog. Everyone loves him because all they see is his 'charm' and his eloquent style of debate and tactics. To someone who has not taken the fields of science seriously you would be to say that that guy is brilliant (I could name numerous examples I personally know). Either he is deceiving himself by his own ignorance and arrogance, or he is deliberately deceiving all of his ilk. As you have seen through all of our posts in response to this Hovind-parroting, his arguments are nothing short of straw-men, unfounded, ludicrous, un-scientific hog-wash. While you do not respond, you have at least been reading our responses I surely hope. And taking a bit of time and reading the links supplied to you will also be of much assistance. As I said before he himself admits that he received his degree from an un-accredited university (labeled as a degree-mill). If I had the time, I would draw him in a paleontology classroom with his face flat on his desk with a bunch of Z's floating from his head, because he obviously either never paid attention or was never even involved with such a class for scientific study. You have seen time and time again through these numerous posts that his arguments are just this, and you may wonder why so many Evo's in the EvC debate get so anti-Creationist and hostile rather than discussing the science, because of people like Hovind. Luckily, we regularly have intelligible scientific discussion from both sides here. Stick around and respond to posts, exchange ideas, acknowledge your mistakes and the mistakes of others material you may iterate and you may do fine. Until then, your posts will be filled with ignorant biased rhetoric, basically unworthy of commentation. You should feel lucky that we attempt to correct you in the hopes that you will understand or read them with an open mind. Just a couple more of my pennies "Stop attacking him for what college he went to (ad hominem)... just tell me, what's wrong with him?"--See above, his arguments are unfounded and un-scientific. Believe me, if you do have any interest in science then discuss the science and read the mainstream material with an open mind in knowing the fact that the data has been interpreted. If you wish not to do this, science is not the field for you, nor is this forum, as well as you should be silent unless you wish to degrade the stance of the conventional YEC any further than many see it because of this type of iteration which is not suitable to be discussed as science. --If I may introduce to you a reliable phrase which I conjured up some time ago after I started using that brain which I believe that God has given me, you may want to see its merit and take it into consideration: "Unbiased scientific inquiry is the basis of true knowledge and understanding. In deposition of my vernality, I should not be underestimated." ------------------ [This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-07-2002]
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3941 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
So it seems, that the evo side can now pass off the newby YEC's to TC and CS (was KP involved also?), and let them handle the situation.
------------------BS degree, geology, '83 Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U Old Earth evolution - Yes Godly creation - Maybe [This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 06-08-2002]
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I am duly impressed, to be sure! However, I am fearful that all someone like our newbie will do is accuse TC and KP of heresy or something and storm off. that's the thing with extreme, radical religious people. They have a very difficult time seeing other people's viewpoint, even if it is only as an exercise to understand the other person's argument. It requires analytic thought and logic, which doesn't seem to be in large supply among young fundy-type religious people.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3823 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
[QUOTE][b]Stop attacking him for what college he went to[/QUOTE]
[/b] We're not attacking the college he went to, because (1) we don't consider Patriot U. a college and (2) he didn't actually "go" there in the college sense, he got his "Ph.D." in the mail. He did attend an accredited Bible college earlier in his academic career but that is not what we are attacking.
[QUOTE][b](ad hominem)... just tell me, what's wrong with him?[/QUOTE] [/b] He's a liar who lacks a basic knowledge of science. One of my favorite Hovind quotes is from his "dissertation", "We don't know how many stars there are in the Solar System...."
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"One of my favorite Hovind quotes is from his "dissertation", "We don't know how many stars there are in the Solar System...." "
--ROFLMAO!!! --We may have to take a gander at his elementary and Jr. High level credibility as well. Tisk, tisk, tisk.. ------------------ [This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-08-2002] [This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-08-2002]
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3217 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: I hold people such as Hovind and Gary Bauer more in contempt. They are dishonerable little liars who claim credentials that they did not earn and misstate others opinions and flat out lie (some of the footprints in some Bauers exhbits appear to have been made from casts). The only skill which Hovind posseses is that of misdirectional debate. Debunking the lies and garbage spread by people such as this is, well Shakespeare said it best in a line from Henry to the King of France."This is my mission, my charge and my message." Quote borrowed from Henry the Fifth. ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
Done already RvX? Your only deluding yourself if your going around all the chartrooms and forums you can until you get a favor on your arguments.
--[Added by edit]This may be one of them scenarios in which there is a need for a creationist only forum section, a bit of unbrain-washing is sometimes needed. ------------------ [This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-11-2002]
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compmage Member (Idle past 5153 days) Posts: 601 From: South Africa Joined: |
quote: Agreed. It is far easier to convince a person to change their views from point A to point B, than from point A to point Z. Who knows, maybe one day everyone will see the light and become evolutionists if only we try baby steps ------------------compmage
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3217 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by compmage:
Who knows, maybe one day everyone will see the light and become evolutionists if only we try baby steps [/B][/QUOTE] Oh Man! that is no fun. Wouldn't you rather do an experiment that takes you from A to Z, from Alpha to Omega in one giant leap Actually having done more than a few of those while the return can be great the odds of success are very, very small. ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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derwood Member (Idle past 1876 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: Well, looks like I am a bit behind in this.... discussion.... But the above sentiment pretty much completely describes the level of knowledge this chap has on the subject...
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derwood Member (Idle past 1876 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: I don't hate him, I feel sorry for him. He is a LIAR - that or monumentally incompetent. I saw him 'debate' Bill Moore at Wayne State University about 5 years ago. Hovind had sent Moore a copy of one of his taped 'debates' so that Moore would 'know what he was up against.' In the taped debate, Hovind used his infamous 'moon rocks' schtick, and Moore went to WSU's library, found all of the relevant articles that Hovind claimed to have used, and, during their debate, demonstrated that Hovind had basically made the whole thing up. Hovind's response? Did he try to defend himself? Of course not. He says "So you're calling me a liar? well, I KNOW the truth!", lofting his bible into the air, much to the delight of the largely bussed-in crowd (there were church busses in the parking lot from as far away as Toledo!). He didn't even try to defend his claims. Liar. That or monumewntally incompetent. Thats why I feel sorry for him. He is so deluded that he cannot even see that he is a charlatan.And what is worse - those who think he knows what he is talking about are even more in the dark.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1479 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I'll give this a go ...
quote: What makes you sure that a human is superior to a dog ? I mean, most humans work their butts off for the majority oftheir life, and don't get to spend more than a few days a year relaxing ... whereas most dog's spend their entire life sleeping, eating, playing, and (if they are lucky) making little dogs. Flippancy aside though ... evolution is not about progressionor superiority. It's about adapting to a changing emvironment, and we CAN observe this in the small. More dark peppered moths than light when the trees were covered in coal, speciation of finches in the Gallapogos islands, comparitive anatomy of the ear oscicles across fish-amphibian-reptile-mammal, etc. It might not convince you of macro-evolution, but then there arethe more recent genetic studies to watch. Will you at least concede that speciation can happen (most YEC'sdon't refute that ... and that's a start). quote: That's not evolution. Maybe God DID speak the universe intoexistence ... the question here is about the origin of DIVERSITY of life on Earth. Confine yourself to that line of thought before going further back in time. quote: I don't know much about Kent Hovind ... what is his PhD in andwhere did he earn it ? Perhaps you could find that out and let me know. I don't insult anyone (or at least I try not to, but when someonepulls out on me when I'm on my motorbike I might let that one slide a little quote: I believe evolution IS a theory. A hypothesis (someone correctme if I'm wrong) is an idea based upon first observation of a phenomen. E.g. Darwin saw the finches and tortoises on the Gallapogus islands (or was it iguanas ?) and thought, hmm... seems to me that there must be some kind of natural selection going on here. He then thought about what that would mean, and what other evidence he should expect to find. Others, likewise made predictions and sought to refute them. In time, and under peer review, evidence in favour grew, anda Theory of Evolution was proposed. Like any other theory it is open to refutation.
quote: Unsrupulous people on both sides of the debate will present mis-leading or false evidence to support their position. Don't tar everyone with the same bruch ... Jesus didn't.
quote: First, just because it is difficult to beleive doesn't mean it isn'ttrue. People once found it difficult to beleive that the earth wasn't flat,but that turned out to be true. Second, we don't understand intelligence, nor what makes intelligencehappen in an organism ... so we can make no comment on the feasibility of our 'intelligence' evolving from less intelligent sources. Some slime mould exhibit a primitive intelligence ... if I can digout the article I will ... in terms of navigating a maze to find food. Contentious maybe ... but it illustrates that we cannot fully comment on phenomena we do not fully understand yet. We can only create and test hypotheses and theories.
quote: You really need to back that up. BUT it may have been a political move to restore his positionin society. He WAS under an enormous pressure to recant. quote: Sorry ... live in the UK. Perhaps you could summarise it for us.
quote: There are numerous flood events recorded in the geologic record,but none on the global scale as recorded in Genesis, and certainly not at the time assumed by a literal interpretation of the Bible (whether that be 2500 or 3500 BCE). There are also numerous flood stories from many cultures, manyof which share elements of the Great Flood, and some (the sumerian account and that in the Hinud Veda's) which pre-date the Bible. That's pre-date within the same context as the dating of the bibleitself i.e. by archeologists and other scholars. quote: Faith and belief can be wonderful things, but even Jesus arguedagainst dogmatically following the religion handed us by the preists ... and the jewish priests had him nailed to a cross for it. Argue your position from evidence, don't descend into outrage ...Jesus taught tolerance after all. quote: You are welcome to any opinion you wish ... but in a debate youmust support your claims. quote: I'm not sure that anyone has directly observed an electron ...is partical physics science or not ? Evolution IS observable ... the theory stems from empirical evidencethat can be interpreted as evolution. We reproduce micro-evolution all the time (selective breeding),and some genetic experiments (mentioned elsewhere) have indicated that a change in a single protein can inhibit leg development in shrimp (I think). Given a little more time and effort we MIGHT be able to reproduce evolutionary effects. But, would that then fall foul of an 'AH but there was intelligencebehind that experiment' argument ? quote: Your welcome.
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7665 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
I challenge you too, truecreation. We shall see how long evolution theory stands. In contrast to what is propagated by the evolutionists' "meme", the theory is not supported by molecular biology, and it violates the laws of physics, and the laws of chemistry (I challenge you also on this level). For every socalled proof you provide I will provide you with at least one falsification (on every level of evolution theory).
Peter
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