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Author Topic:   Adam & Eve to be blamed, or god!
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 117 (131538)
08-08-2004 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Prince Lucianus
07-22-2004 10:25 AM


quote:
Alright, so Adam & Eve were cursed by god and we (their children) are therefore also punished by god. (Although I believe the bible states that you shouldn't suffer for your parents mistakes, this one probably does count).
We shouldnt suffer from our parents for their sins. For example if they murdered and you getting hanged for it. But what Adam and Eve did was bring sin to the world. Not to the humanrace only. Sin was now a part of this world, period. Mankind will now be born with knowlegde of good and evil. The earth was cursed (not upheld by God). Hence the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Romans teaches exactly what this issue is about.
'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned' Romans 5:12
The entry of sin (the choice to do contrary to Gods rules) is traced to its human source from which all mankind came from. 'All have sinned' refers to the point in time to Adam. When he fell the entire humanrace was constituted 'sinners'.
quote:
Adam and Eve should have remained virgins. I think Lilith had no children with Adam, so their chastity would have made sure that millions would not have been send to hell.
Do you mean stopping the humanrace all together? Theres is no point to that. Gods eternal plan was to live in harmony with him. Since it couldnt happen on earth. He gave us the new covenent which says we can have a second chance and its through the God of the New Testament. God has a plan and to say he should have stoped the humanrace because of sinners who blaspheme God and sin going to hell? If you choose to live without God, then God will cut you off from his presence completely.
quote:
God himself could have admitted his mistake and try again. It was his first attempt, nobody immediately succeeds. We would have forgiven him for the slaughter of 2 sinners. They would have deserved what they got.
God did not make a mistake. What did he do wrong?. He HAD to give man the test. To see if he was capable of keeping Gods commandments and obeying. He failed that and Adam and Eve were the representitives of the humanrace. Through them all generations would have appeared from. They brought sin into the world by disobeying God. God calls for man to consider the brevity of life (were not here for long, we should at least consider it) and the judgement of sin.
quote:
All three are to be blamed in my opinion.
God is forgiving. Because while we were still sinners. Christ took Gods wrath and beared all sins. So that we could have a second chance at peace with God. Alot of people try to tell God what to do or he should of done this etc. But you forget that he is the creator of EVERYTHING. He is the creator, we are the creature. He is in charge. And we must acknowledge that position of authority. His given us his plan in the Bible. Including Revelation. What Christ did was save us all from the judgement on sin. And a chance to live holy and live with the Lord for eternity. I was once so weary of what God was doing. Obey or go to hell. But now from being understanding God, it become completely understandable as the days went by. We MUST submit to his authority. Because he made all, thus owns all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Prince Lucianus, posted 07-22-2004 10:25 AM Prince Lucianus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by CK, posted 08-08-2004 7:39 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 78 by Rrhain, posted 08-08-2004 8:14 AM almeyda has replied
 Message 85 by jar, posted 08-09-2004 12:24 PM almeyda has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 77 of 117 (131542)
08-08-2004 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by almeyda
08-08-2004 7:10 AM


we are the creature. He is in charge. And we must acknowledge that position of authority.
So we are animals in a petting zoo, thanks for confirming that...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by almeyda, posted 08-08-2004 7:10 AM almeyda has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 78 of 117 (131544)
08-08-2004 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by almeyda
08-08-2004 7:10 AM


almeyda writes:
quote:
The earth was cursed (not upheld by God). Hence the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Um, without the second law of thermodynamics, life is not possible. So if you're going to trigger the invention of physics with the fall, how on earth was there any existence of anything before? There couldn't be an Adam or an Eve to fall if there were no second law.
Question: What is the definition of the Second Law of Thermodynamics?
Hint: If your answer contains the words "order," "disorder," or "information," then you've failed.
Hint: Try to remember what the word "thermodynamics" literally means.
quote:
Romans teaches exactly what this issue is about.
What on earth does a Christian text have to do with a Jewish story? Genesis was written by Jews for Jews. Who are Christians to tell Jews what their stories mean?
quote:
God did not make a mistake. What did he do wrong?
Putting the tree of knowledge where Adam and Eve could get at it.
If you have a priceless Mhing vase that you do not want broken, do you put it on a rickety pedestal with a toddler and then turn your back? And then get upset when you hear the inevitable crash? Of course not. You're the adult, the toddler doesn't know any better (no matter how clearly you say, "Don't touch"), and it is your fault that it got broken. If you don't want the toddler to break the vase, it is your responsibility to put it where the toddler can't get at it.
If god didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge (or even touch it, if we are to believe Eve), then he shouldn't have put them in the same spot.
quote:
He HAD to give man the test.
Why? Where on earth do we find anywhere in the Bible the claim that god must tempt humans to sin?
quote:
To see if he was capable of keeping Gods commandments and obeying. He failed that
Only because he wasn't given the requisite tools not to. Adam and Eve were doomed to disobey precisely because they were innocent. Obedience requires knowledge of good and evil. Since they didn't have that knowledge, they had no reason to follow god and would eventually eat from the tree.
quote:
and Adam and Eve were the representitives of the humanrace.
Um, I'll stand up for myself, thank you very much. Didn't you just say that "we shouldn't suffer from our parents for their sins"? If Adam and Eve screwed up, they can suffer the consequences. I haven't eaten from the tree of knowledge, so why should I be punished for it?
quote:
Through them all generations would have appeared from.
Didn't you just say "we shouldn't suffer from our parents for their sins"?
quote:
God calls for man to consider the brevity of life
Only because he kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden before they had a chance to eat from the tree of life and become exactly as god and live forever. How very lucky god was that Adam and Eve decided to eat from the trees in the order they did.
quote:
God is forgiving. Because while we were still sinners. Christ took Gods wrath and beared all sins.
What on earth does this have to do with a Jewish story? We're talking about Genesis: A story written by Jews for Jews. What on earth makes you think a Christian has any authority here?
quote:
Alot of people try to tell God what to do or he should of done this etc.
First, a spelling flame.
It'a "a lot." Two words. "Alot" would be pronounced "al'-uht." If you were going to intensify the expression, you'd say, "a whole lot," and you need a hole for the "whole."
Second, a grammar flame.
It's "have," not "of." He should have done. Do not confuse the contraction "should've" with the phantom expression, "should of."
Second, of course a lot of people try to tell god what to do or he should have done this. As god directly states, we are as gods, knowing good and evil (Genesis 3:22). So since we know the difference between good and evil, why shouldn't we be capable of evaluating the actions of god and concluding they are good or evil? After all, god is the source of all evil as he directly states. What's the big deal in noticing that?
quote:
Obey or go to hell.
BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by almeyda, posted 08-08-2004 7:10 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by almeyda, posted 08-08-2004 10:27 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 117 (131549)
08-08-2004 8:44 AM


My 2 cents
Hey there, y'all. Just up early pokin around on the computer....hmmmm whats up at EvC? The old Adam, Eve, Good/Evil tree thing and the definition of God....so here is my 2 cents:
To begin with, I define God as incapable of imperfection. God never created evil. He created a freewill Lucifer who chose to become an egomaniac like the majority of intellectuals running around to and fro on the third rock from the sun. Lucifer was allowed to exist, however. Thus, in that sense, it may be Gods fault that we are not perfect. How do you blame a Creator? The very action speaks volumes of your own ego.
Intellectual Atheist writes:
(Talking to the air) Hey you there! I can prove that you are not all that! Don't blame me for rebellion...you gave me free will!!!
If you are so mighty and powerful, show yourself because I don't even believe that you exist! Pesky ignorant Christian fundies, anyway! What I don't understand is why I stay around to argue with them!
We cannot say that Adam and Eve were mere innocent babies in the sense of how we understand reality now. In the context of the story, there was but one reality before Original Sin. We now have another reality.
Before Sin: Door #1 only. Gods way.
After Disobedience: Many doors, many perspectives, many options. Lost sight of Door #1, though. Then came Jesus. Door#1 is back!

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by CK, posted 08-08-2004 8:47 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 81 by Rrhain, posted 08-08-2004 9:04 AM Phat has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 80 of 117 (131550)
08-08-2004 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
08-08-2004 8:44 AM


Re: My 2 cents
ah right - it's the approach of the critical thinker that is wrong - not the fact that the story does not make much sense?
Remember kids - Feel, don't think!
Be a good sheep!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 08-08-2004 8:44 AM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 81 of 117 (131557)
08-08-2004 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
08-08-2004 8:44 AM


Re: My 2 cents
Phatboy writes:
quote:
God never created evil. He created a freewill Lucifer
From your statement, it appears that you follow the god as described in the Bible.
Since the Bible states that god is the source of all evil, then your statement that "God never created evil" is directly contradicted. If you can't believe god, who are you going to believe?
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
God even boasts about it:
Ezekiel 20:25: Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
20:26: And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.
And let's not forget god's biggest boo-boo of all:
Genesis 9:15: And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Seems that god can even regret having caused evil.
Again, if you aren't going to believe the word of god, who are you going to believe?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 08-08-2004 8:44 AM Phat has not replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 117 (131721)
08-08-2004 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Rrhain
08-08-2004 8:14 AM


quote:
Um, without the second law of thermodynamics, life is not possible. So if you're going to trigger the invention of physics with the fall, how on earth was there any existence of anything before? There couldn't be an Adam or an Eve to fall if there were no second law.
I was hoping to sneak that remark by because it wasnt really part of my argument. The reason i put it there is because Genesis marks the beginning of the temporal and material world. Therefore since God took away his power in upholding the earth. Ever since the curse then it would mean energy and our resources have been running down hill since then. Thats my understanding of the 2nd Law. However if im wrong please tell me the true meaning.
quote:
What on earth does a Christian text have to do with a Jewish story? Genesis was written by Jews for Jews. Who are Christians to tell Jews what their stories mean?
Genesis was not written for Jews. It was written by Jews. Genesis is the beginning of the humanrace, and it was not written just for Jews. If that was the case then the OT would not be in the christian Bible. And the Bible would not have been translated into more languages then any other book. The OT & NT cross reference each other hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. The same God inspired the writings of both. It just so happens that God has different plans of the OT saints and the NT saints.
quote:
Putting the tree of knowledge where Adam and Eve could get at it.
If god didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge (or even touch it, if we are to believe Eve), then he shouldn't have put them in the same spot.
What you have to understand is the reason behind God making man. He gave man a soul. He had to test mans obediance. God wanted man to live in harmony with him. And also wanted man to do it because of his own freewill. Not because God has not let him choose otherwise. Thats what freewill is all about.
quote:
Why? Where on earth do we find anywhere in the Bible the claim that god must tempt humans to sin?
How else could man have been tempted to disobey God? To see if man could stay faithful in the light of freewill and temptation? In Genesis 3:1 it says 'Now the serpent was more subtile than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made'. The serpent was a creature made by God, but used by Satan. This freewill included the choice to do contrary to what God had said. But God said that if they did eat from the true, then they would surely die.
quote:
Only because he wasn't given the requisite tools not to. Adam and Eve were doomed to disobey precisely because they were innocent. Obedience requires knowledge of good and evil. Since they didn't have that knowledge, they had no reason to follow god and would eventually eat from the tree.
When God made Adam, he was born as a mature and intelligent adult. They had a reason to follow God because he was there and he made them, and he warned them about the tree. He had authority over them and they chose to disobey his orders.
quote:
Um, I'll stand up for myself, thank you very much. Didn't you just say that "we shouldn't suffer from our parents for their sins"? If Adam and Eve screwed up, they can suffer the consequences. I haven't eaten from the tree of knowledge, so why should I be punished for it?
Well it doesnt look like your living with God. Judging by your posts you seem like an athiest (tell me otherwise). So even today you are doing the exact thing Adam and Eve did. So you have brought the curse on yourself. What God did was let you have freewill to choose to live your way or his way. The reason we must live by his way at all costs is because he is the one that will judge every man who ever lived and also has the power to cast sinners into hell. And, your not being punished 100%, because God has given us a 2nd chance through believing in Christ we will have eternal life. But if you choose to live without God and Christ. Then YOU have decided your own fate because Gods word stands firm and our opinions are not going to change Gods plan. That is, if God DOES exist. If he doesnt then you might just save your own soul. I mean your evolutionized brain.
quote:
Didn't you just say "we shouldn't suffer from our parents for their sins"?
What i mean is that all the generations and people have descended from Adam and Eve. And all these generations have been born with sin in their lives and in the world. Nothing is going to change that the earth is cursed. Its not about Adam murdering and us going to hell for it. Its about allowing the choice of disobedience to Gods will. This choice is now available in a cursed world.
quote:
What on earth does this have to do with a Jewish story? We're talking about Genesis: A story written by Jews for Jews. What on earth makes you think a Christian has any authority here?
You seem to think that the OT and NT are not compatible or something like that. If they werent then the OT wouldnt contain prophecys of Jesus and the New Covenent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Rrhain, posted 08-08-2004 8:14 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Rrhain, posted 08-09-2004 2:29 AM almeyda has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 83 of 117 (131777)
08-09-2004 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by almeyda
08-08-2004 10:27 PM


almeyda responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Um, without the second law of thermodynamics, life is not possible. So if you're going to trigger the invention of physics with the fall, how on earth was there any existence of anything before? There couldn't be an Adam or an Eve to fall if there were no second law.
I was hoping to sneak that remark by because it wasnt really part of my argument. The reason i put it there is because Genesis marks the beginning of the temporal and material world.
Again, without a temporal and material world, there can be no existence. If you're going to trigger the invention of reality with the fall, how on earth was there any existence of anything before? There couldn't be an Adam or an Eve to fall if there were no temporal and material world.
quote:
Therefore since God took away his power in upholding the earth. Ever since the curse then it would mean energy and our resources have been running down hill since then. Thats my understanding of the 2nd Law. However if im wrong please tell me the true meaning.
delta-S = delta-Q/T
That's the second law.
Where do you find anything about "running down hill" in there? You seem to think that the second law has something to do with order. It does not. It has to do with energy transfer. In any reaction, energy is transferred, but not all of it. Some energy is always lost. The three laws of thermo really do correspond to the common concept of "You can't win, you can't break even, you can't even quit the game." You cannot get more energy out than you put in (first law), you can't get out all of the energy you put in (second law), nor can you ever reach purely zero energy (third law).
These laws are interdependent, too. Part of the reason the second law exists is because of the first law. Suppose you had a high temperature boiler and low temperature condenser. Suppose you have an engine that is perfectly efficient, capable of converting all energy input into work. You could then use this engine to run a refrigerator. But this would violate the other laws: You'd end up getting more energy out than you put in as you pulled energy from the low temperature reservoir as well as getting the energy from the engine (violation of the first law) and you'd eventually pull all the energy from the low temperature reservoir, sending it to absolute zero (violation of the third law).
quote:
quote:
What on earth does a Christian text have to do with a Jewish story? Genesis was written by Jews for Jews. Who are Christians to tell Jews what their stories mean?
Genesis was not written for Jews.
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you?
It's their holy scripture. How on earth could it not be written for them?
quote:
It was written by Jews.
And who do you think they were writing for? Christians who wouldn't exist for another thousand years?
quote:
Genesis is the beginning of the humanrace, and it was not written just for Jews.
You misunderstand. Genesis cannot be understood except from a Jewish perspective. The metaphors it uses, the way it presents things, the phrasing and imagery, they are all part of the Jewish experience. That doesn't mean that non-Jews can't get anything out of it, but it means that the point of the story is dependent upon that Jewish conceptualization of the world.
Thus, for example, the serpent in Eden was not the devil. It cannot be because in Jewish theology of the time that Genesis was written, there was no such thing as the devil. Even in current Jewish theology, the concept of the devil isn't like the Christian vision of a fallen angel. For someone to then claim that the "old serpent" mentioned in Revelation is the same serpent from Eden is simply ludicrous. Since the serpent in Eden wasn't the devil, how could the devil in Revelation be the serpent in Eden?
quote:
If that was the case then the OT would not be in the christian Bible.
You ignore the history of Christianity. The Christian Bible wasn't completed until the fifth century CE with many of the books written long after the supposed time of Jesus. Judaism had split into many sects at the supposed time of Jesus already, so it is not surprising that as Judaism morphed into Christianity, that it would pull some of the texts from its past into the new paradigm, abandoning the old interpretations in favor of the new. After all, what is the point of being a new religion if you're just like the old one?
Christianity is not simply Judaism + Jesus.
quote:
And the Bible would not have been translated into more languages then any other book.
Euclid's Elements.
And people don't have ulterior motives for putting Elements into other languages. The proselytising of theology is the height of arrogance, claiming that the poor victims are morons who need to be saved when they never asked for assistance in the first place.
In other words, was the Bible translated into, say, Maori because the Maori asked for it or because the English imposed it upon them?
quote:
The OT & NT cross reference each other hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times.
Impossible. The OT cannot reference the NT because the NT hadn't been written at the time. Remember, the OT was written by Jews for Jews.
And as for the NT referencing the OT, do not forget that the NT often gets the OT wrong.
quote:
The same God inspired the writings of both.
Christian arrogance. The god of the Jews is not the same god as the god of the Christians. If it were, then Jews would accept Jesus as the Messiah.
quote:
quote:
If god didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge (or even touch it, if we are to believe Eve), then he shouldn't have put them in the same spot.
What you have to understand is the reason behind God making man.
Non sequitur.
Let's try again. If god didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge (or even touch it, if we are to believe Eve), then he shouldn't have put them in the same spot.
quote:
He gave man a soul. He had to test mans obediance. God wanted man to live in harmony with him. And also wanted man to do it because of his own freewill. Not because God has not let him choose otherwise. Thats what freewill is all about.
Says who? You? Where on earth do we find anywhere in the Bible the claim that god must tempt humans to sin?
Chapter and verse, please.
quote:
quote:
Why? Where on earth do we find anywhere in the Bible the claim that god must tempt humans to sin?
How else could man have been tempted to disobey God?
So the tempter of Adam and Eve was actually god? It certainly wasn't the serpent since he didn't tell them to eat from the tree. The actual temptation was the tree, itself? Then why blame the serpent?
But you still haven't answered the question. Where on earth do we find anywhere in the Bible the claim that god must tempt humans to sin?
Chapter and verse, please.
quote:
In Genesis 3:1 it says 'Now the serpent was more subtile than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made'.
This doesn't make the serpent evil. As I pointed out in Message 51:
The root is "'aruwm" which means "prudent," "shrewd," "sensible."
Where on earth does this imply the serpent was evil? Remember, the serpent never tells Eve to eat from the tree. She came to that decision on her own.
quote:
The serpent was a creature made by God, but used by Satan.
Says who? You? The Bible never says that. Remember, Genesis was written by Jews who had no concept of the devil. How on earth could they write a story about an animal "used by" the devil when in their minds, there is no such thing?
quote:
But God said that if they did eat from the true, then they would surely die.
But god was lying. The serpent, being prudent and sensible, told Eve the truth.
quote:
quote:
Only because he wasn't given the requisite tools not to. Adam and Eve were doomed to disobey precisely because they were innocent. Obedience requires knowledge of good and evil. Since they didn't have that knowledge, they had no reason to follow god and would eventually eat from the tree.
When God made Adam, he was born as a mature and intelligent adult.
Where did I say that Adam was stupid? I have repeated this statement over and over and over again. How many times must I say it before you remember it?
Adam was not stupid. He was INNOCENT.
Beetaratagang or clerendipity? Which one do you choose? One will send you to heaven and one will send you to hell. Which one do you choose? Come on, now. Why do you hesitate? You are a mature, intelligent adult. Surely you are capable of deciding whether you wish to follow the path of beetaratagang or the way of clerendipity.
Do you not understand the point? It isn't that you are stupid...it's that you don't know what those things are. You are innocent. How do you describe color to a blind person? Sound to a deaf person? It isn't a question of mental capacity. It's that they simply don't experience the world that way.
quote:
They had a reason to follow God because he was there and he made them,
That's not a reason. Why should they care that god made them? That's a question of "honor" and "respect" which is part of "good" and "evil," which they don't understand because they hadn't eaten from the tree yet.
quote:
and he warned them about the tree.
By lying about it. The serpent, being prudent and sensible, told them the truth. He didn't tell them to eat from the tree, however. Eve came to that decision all on her own.
quote:
He had authority over them and they chose to disobey his orders.
Authority is part of "good" and "evil" which Adam and Eve didn't undestand because they hadn't eaten from the tree yet.
And again, they obviously did act contrary to god's will, but that doesn't make what they did sin. Sin requires deliberate intent to do evil. Since they did not know what evil was, they were incapable of having deliberate intent to do it.
quote:
quote:
Um, I'll stand up for myself, thank you very much. Didn't you just say that "we shouldn't suffer from our parents for their sins"? If Adam and Eve screwed up, they can suffer the consequences. I haven't eaten from the tree of knowledge, so why should I be punished for it?
Well it doesnt look like your living with God.
Since when was it decided that I was an atheist? I've been very careful to leave my opinions about the existence of supernatural beings out of it. Just because I don't believe in your god doesn't mean I don't believe in any god.
And you haven't answered my question. If the biblical system of justice is that the sins of the parents should not be visited upon the children, why on earth are we being punished? God could easily have let the sin die with them.
quote:
Judging by your posts you seem like an athiest (tell me otherwise).
No.
I refuse to have you judge my posts based upon your perception of how a person of religious persuasion X should behave. Learn to live with disappointment.
quote:
So even today you are doing the exact thing Adam and Eve did.
Says who? You? Doesn't your saviour tell you not to judge?
quote:
The reason we must live by his way at all costs is because he is the one that will judge every man who ever lived and also has the power to cast sinners into hell.
BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, almeyda. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!
Well, Bob, almeyda has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, almeyda gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.
But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.
You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?
quote:
quote:
Didn't you just say "we shouldn't suffer from our parents for their sins"?
What i mean is that all the generations and people have descended from Adam and Eve.
Non sequitur.
If we shouldn't suffer from our parents for their sins, why does the rest of humanity have to suffer from the sins of Adam and Eve? Why does it matter that humanity is descended from them?
quote:
And all these generations have been born with sin in their lives and in the world.
Why? if we shouldn't suffer from our parents for their sins, why are we suffering from the sins of Adam and Eve?
quote:
Nothing is going to change that the earth is cursed.
God could do it if he wanted. He put the curse down. He could take it away. After all, isn't that the promise from your saviour?
And if we aren't supposed to suffer the sins of our parents, why did god curse the entire world for the sins of Adam and Eve?
quote:
Its not about Adam murdering and us going to hell for it. Its about allowing the choice of disobedience to Gods will.
They always had that choice and it was set up by god. By putting the tree where Adam and Eve could get to it, god allowed the choice of disobedience to god's will into the world. Original sin, therefore, was deliberately thrust upon the world by god. Adam and Eve were simply patsies set up to take the rap for god.
quote:
This choice is now available in a cursed world.
It doesn't have to be.
quote:
quote:
What on earth does this have to do with a Jewish story? We're talking about Genesis: A story written by Jews for Jews. What on earth makes you think a Christian has any authority here?
You seem to think that the OT and NT are not compatible or something like that.
They're not.
If they were, Jews would be Christians. Since they're obviously not, then it must necessarily be the case that the Old Testament doesn't really connect with the New Testament. Instead, Christians have taken the Old Testament, mangled its intent and stories to mean things it was never supposed to. A Christian reading of the Old Testament is quite different from a Jewish reading.
As a f'rinstance, what was the sin of Sodom? Christians seem to think it was homosexuality. Jews, on the other hand, seem to think it was inhospitality.
quote:
If they werent then the OT wouldnt contain prophecys of Jesus and the New Covenent.
But that's just it:
It doesn't.
Jesus does not fulfill the prophecies of the Messiah as put forward by the Old Testament. That's why Jews don't accept him as the Messiah.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by almeyda, posted 08-08-2004 10:27 PM almeyda has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 117 (131860)
08-09-2004 11:43 AM


Humanity writes the words, so is God responsible?
It is interesting when you get into the arguments and theories concerning the meaning of the OT and of who wrote Genesis, why they wrote it, and to whom it was written. Wycliffes Bible Commentary says this about Genesis:
The discovery in modern times of such ancient records as the Amarna Letters, the Ugaritic (or Ras Shamra) literature, and the clay tablets from Mesopotamia (Mari and Nuzu), has enabled scholars to reconstruct the historical and cultural background of the Biblical record, and to discover what life was like in Egypt, Palestine, and Mesopotamia during the Biblical epoch. Very likely many oral and written records, reaching far back into antiquity, were available to the distinguished Hebrew scholar, whose Egyptian schooling and whose graduate study in the region of Mount Sinai made him aware of significant world movements. According to Jewish tradition, when the great scribe Ezra came back from Babylonia to Jerusalem, bringing the Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament, he set to work with prodigious energy preserving, copying, and editing the old materials in his possession.(from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)
From a Dispensationalist perspective, Judaism began with the giving of the Law in Exodus. Thus, Genesis was recorded by Jews who had just incorporated their existance as Jews in relationship to Yahweh. Notice the people that were building the ziggurat in Mesopotamia:
NIV writes:
Gen 11:1-9 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there. They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel--because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world.
Well, we know Mesopotamia from studies to be a culture of pessimistic, brooding, often conquered people. When this part of Genesis was written, it was written as from the perspective of one who was there. Of course the world around this individual had a common language, until more and more nomads passing through were drawn to this building project and the languages became muddled. Interesting from a perspective of how cultures relate to each other. Languages are different for the same reason that teenagers have a slang all their own....they want to make themselves a seperate identity from that of their parental culture around them. Ok, Rrhain, getting back on topic, if we assume that this OT God is actually real, which of course I do, we must look into the context of the verses which you quoted.
NIV writes:
Isa 45:1"This is what the LORD says to his anointed,(...)Isa 45:7- I form the light and create darkness,I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Was the author God or man? Certainly, a man wrote this. So was he inspired? This brings up issue #1:
Is the issue black and white? Are humans either inspired supernaturally by a preeminant and Monotheistic Holy Spirit...or not?
Many who argue against this supposition claim that human inspiration is very much a relative concept. Perhaps this claim could be reinforced by Genesis 1:11 since languages were increasingly diversified, perhaps cultures and groups of civilized people were distancing themselves one from another and, fittingly, showing different forms of inspiration. This brings up issue#2:
Are we to believe that Biblical Israel was inspired by a unique source of inspiration apart from their own relative culture?
Well, we know what the Bible says about this. The author of Isaiah seems to believe in the same God that the author(s) of Job believed in. Job talks of God talking to Satan, allowing Satan to mess up Jobs life. Notice how the author is careful to explain that it was not Gods fault.
NIV writes:
Job 1:20-2:1At this,(the destruction of his property and death of his kids) Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
Are the authors of these verses inspired by God or not?
Now on to Ezekiel 20:25 The author is transcribing how God is relating to His people, Israel.
Job was a blameless man who suffered what one witness said was the fire of God from above, while the author points out that God allowed Satan to wreak destruction.
In Exekiel, the destruction occurred because the people were trying to worship whatever they wanted to worship and party it up rather than relate to God.
NIV writes:
Ezek 20:20-26 Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God.But the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws-although the man who obeys them will live by them-and they desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the desert. But I withheld my hand, and for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the desert that I would disperse them among the nations and scatter them through the countries, because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes [lusted] after their fathers' idols. I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; I let them become defiled through their gifts-the sacrifice of every firstborn-that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'
This brings us back to square one. Is the human author making up a God so as to control the people with fear? Some would suggest this, while others would stick to the premise that the author was inspired to write what was written for altruistic motives.
Is the inspiration of writing a relative concept? Is inspiration a spiritual reality? Is Spirit absolute, or relative?
Some believe that God is invented by man as a product of our imaginations, be the motive altruistic or be it manipulative. Others believe that God is, Himself, the source of inspiration and that basically reality is either His way or our own way.
Back to square one, is reality defined as In the Beginning, God created or is it defined as In the beginning, man wrote...?
Were the authors inspired by a source apart from their own imaginations?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-09-2004 11:02 AM

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 117 (131884)
08-09-2004 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by almeyda
08-08-2004 7:10 AM


Smoke and mirrors
You have still not answered the question, "What is evil about the knowledge of good and evil?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 117 (131983)
08-09-2004 3:34 PM


How can I explain current dualistic reality?
jar writes:
You have still not answered the question, "What is evil about the knowledge of good and evil?"
Well, first of all we must ask ourselves what the ramifications of this "awareness" really are?
My Belief involves several preconceptions. First, the source of all creativity, evolution, and progressive regeneration originates from God. The alternative view is that a spontaneously regenerating universe need not have a God or gods as sources. From a thinking mind, then, all postulates are formed. We in essence are our own source. Humanity teaches humanity. Yoda
seems much more plausible than Jesus Christ.
Order and Hierarchy have always been part of what allows systems such as armies and governments to function. To me, God is the only source, and to be enticed by any alternative is not only un necessary but ultimately unprofitable. To an atheist, my aversion to autonomy is their attraction! They live to be free and be unshackled.

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 117 (131984)
08-09-2004 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
08-09-2004 3:34 PM


Re: How can I explain current dualistic reality?
That still has nothing to do with the question.
It is really a simple question.
"What is evil about the knowledge of good and evil?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 08-09-2004 3:34 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by portmaster1000, posted 08-09-2004 5:22 PM jar has replied
 Message 98 by lfen, posted 08-11-2004 7:22 PM jar has not replied

  
portmaster1000
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 117 (132015)
08-09-2004 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
08-09-2004 3:37 PM


Re: How can I explain current dualistic reality?
jar writes:
It is really a simple question.
"What is evil about the knowledge of good and evil?"
Here is my input on this question.
The knowledge of good and evil (KGE) lets you determine if any given action is good or evil. Gaining KGE is an action. Is gaining KGE good or evil?
Personally, I can't see where KGE alone is either evil or good.
thanx
PM1K

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 08-09-2004 3:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 117 (132023)
08-09-2004 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by portmaster1000
08-09-2004 5:22 PM


Re: How can I explain current dualistic reality?
Neither do I but almeyda and phatboy keep saying it is.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by portmaster1000, posted 08-09-2004 5:22 PM portmaster1000 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 117 (132243)
08-10-2004 2:49 AM


God wants our undivided attention
postmaster1000 writes:
The knowledge of good and evil (KGE) lets you determine if any given action is good or evil. Gaining KGE is an action. Is gaining KGE good or evil? Personally, I can't see where KGE alone is either evil or good.
Several points that I want to address.. First of all, none of us can comprehend what the lack of such knowledge would feel like. We DO know from the commandments that God wants our undivided attention.
Matt 22:35-39 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
It seems as if the knowledge of evil would thus mean the awareness of competition for Gods attention. Its kinda like if you were married, and your wife was the jealous type. You may claim that the action of simply looking at and talking with other women in the neighborhood was not a wrong or improper thing to do, but the fact is that 1)Your wife would be angry, and (2), you would be tempted to pay less attention to her. If there is any truth to the idea that the KGE a bad idea, it would stem from violating the greatest commandment of paying full attention and committment to God.

Replies to this message:
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